Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[Restingvoice]

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

Ooh I want to see that shitstorm

My answer still stands writing wise though. I don't watch shitstorm for shitstorm sake. It has to have a good **** first, because we storm it.

[Dred]

Simple - you actually push POC characters into main character big star status. The MCU didn't make Tony Stark black - they made Black Panther into a billion dollar movie. You add diversity to the line up by giving diverse characters a shot at big movies and shows and video games. Bronze Tiger can support a show as the lead, Vixen could support a movie, Black Lightning could be in a Justice League reboot, Steel could spin off of Superman, you can make these characters MAIN characters that everyone sees.

This is not so simple when people like you yourself state that these media properties will always go back to their "prime" versions and any future generation characters will get swept aside. So if you can't ever do anything but the "original" Justice League and you can't change the race of anyone in the Justice League then you never actually have anything but a bunch of straight white people in focus. If all the diversity is in supporting and legacy characters because of years of racism and only being okay with racebending supporting characters you end up with the exact same problem. Corporate racism: racism while pretending to not be racist.

[Alpha]

I agree.

I recently learned that many people were upset when Etta Candy, Wonder Woman's friend, was racebent.

Etta Candy.

If some people are going to get that upset about Etta, then imagine their reaction to a main character...

I don't know if you are a fan of this character but I'll assume you are.

Etta Candy has a lot of good reasons to stay a caucasian woman, just like Alfred Pennyworth for example. Whereas someone like Steve Trevor can totally be of any ethnicity. These reasons don't have to do with backstory, they have to do with the characterization of these characters. Etta Candy in most stories is quite boring and totally unecessary. But in the Golden Age and in a few other places, she is one of the best supporting characters in comics. Etta Candy is a fat woman that loves eating above everything else and her name itself is a food joke (eat a candy). The thing is, she is absolutely filled with confidence. She loves how she looks and she will join Diana in any dangerous adventure and fight alongside her, even though she has no super powers or martial arts training. She is like Jack Black or Melissa Mccarthy.

There's a comic where Diana tells Etta that "if she gets too fat you won't catch a man" and Etta says "who wants to? When you've got a man you can't do anything with him, but candy you can eat". Now, I think Marston was somewhat making fun of fat women, but he was also sort of glorifying a fat character. Like I said, despite her body type, Etta was a physical force to be reckoned with and she ended up fighting a lot of bad guys while having a lot of fun.

It's a dangerous line where the golden age Etta can both be really offensive and really inspiring. If you take away this personality and action potential you turn an amazing character into a dispensible one. Making her African American and keeping the original personality runs the risk of being far more offensive. This is why she should be white. But again, Diana could have a black Steve Trevor or Trevor Barnes, or Nubia around her. There's no reason for her not to have characters with this skin tone in her circles.

Meanwhile there's a segment of the WW fanbase who will riot if Etta loses weight.

Yes, because the whole point of the character is that she loves the way she looks and that she is a fat character that when used right is a physical force to be reckoned with. Imagine Jack Black in any role but in particular in Kung Fu Panda. That's Etta Candy.

[Vakanai]

This is not so simple when people like you yourself state that these media properties will always go back to their "prime" versions and any future generation characters will get swept aside. So if you can't ever do anything but the "original" Justice League and you can't change the race of anyone in the Justice League then you never actually have anything but a bunch of straight white people in focus. If all the diversity is in supporting and legacy characters because of years of racism and only being okay with racebending supporting characters you end up with the exact same problem. Corporate racism: racism while pretending to not be racist.

Not really. Prime versions just mean Batman's always going to revert to Bruce Wayne, Superman Clark, Wonder Woman Diana, etc. The "original" Justice League as far as membership goes isn't as important. It's the trinity followed by Aquaman, Flash, Martian Manhunter or Cyborg, and a GL...and the GL is kind of optional. That leaves at least 2 or 3 roles up for grabs on the POC front. Never mind this is just the "original founding" League - look how many MCU characters get added every new Avengers movie - all of them.

And that's just the one a phase stupid big team movie. You don't have to be in the big team movie to find an audience or be big. More people watched Aquaman than the JL movie. Guardians of the Galaxy were a huge deal before they showed up in an Avengers movie. Frankly, who gives a **** about the line up for some JL movie? Solo films aren't chopped liver. So what if say Black Lightning doesn't get in a JL film until JL 4: The Search for More Money? I'm not going to wistfully think about what may have been for some past team up film if I'm watching him in theater in his own movie that breaks a billion and is all anybody can talk about for a solid year ala Black Panther. It really is that simple, give these POC characters movies, shows, videogames, and some of them are going to be a huge deal, and who'll care that there wasn't enough race bending going on in some JL movie when Black Lightning, Bronze Tiger, Vixen, and more are sporting their own billion dollar franchises? Push them! Use them! Get them the **** out there in quality product and they will sell!

[Vakanai]

Yes, because the whole point of the character is that she loves the way she looks and that she is a fat character that when used right is a physical force to be reckoned with. Imagine Jack Black in any role but in particular in Kung Fu Panda. That's Etta Candy.

Like I said, there's a segment of the fanbase that revolts at the thought of a non-fat Etta.

[scary harpy]

He got de powered ran around in T-Shirt and was than killed and replaced by an older version from another earth.

And he got also split into a Red and a Blue version.

He also got depowered by the ‘Sand Superman’.

Big deal. It’s a power-complication subplot.

He’s still recognizable as Superman.

Btw. the Teen Titans had also a phase were they ditched their costumes and vowed to never use their powers again.

I think for most of DCs long running franchises you will eras were the franchise got derailed really poor creative decisions.

Yes, they did.

And, because these poor decisions are in print, they are somehow carved into stone.

Any attempts at change will be met with furious backlash.

[Alpha]

Like I said, there's a segment of the fanbase that revolts at the thought of a non-fat Etta.

Why do you dismiss this criticism? What makes it ridiculous in your opinion? Did you like it when Amanda Waller became skinny in the new 52? Should Granny Goodness also get skinnier?

Heck, with Etta Candy it's even more glaring because literally everything about the character was how proud she was of her body. Diana is the epitome of traditional female beauty and her best friend is a fat woman that gets in just as much action as she does. That's the fun of the dynamic. I don't know what's interesting about a skinnier Etta Candy.

Should Matt Murdoch get his vision back permanently?

[Vakanai]

Why do you dismiss this criticism? What makes it ridiculous in your opinion? Did you like it when Amanda Waller became skinny in the new 52? Should Granny Goodness also get skinnier?

Heck, with Etta Candy it's even more glaring because literally everything about the character was how proud she was of her body. Diana is the epitome of traditional female beauty and her best friend is a fat woman that gets in just as much action as she does. That's the fun of the dynamic. I don't know what's interesting about a skinnier Etta Candy.

Should Matt Murdoch get his vision back permanently?

I neither dismissed it nor said it was ridiculous - I don't really care that much about Etta Candy one way or another, to be frank. I just find something like weight to be a non-issue. It doesn't affect personality, personal experience (unless you want to make a "bullied for being overweight" statement, which is frankly getting more and more a silly as obesity becomes more and more an epidemic), or anything else. You can't change someone's race without changing so much of their background and culture. But there's no fat culture. A fat Etta or a skinny Etta doesn't change a thing about Etta. So it's not that I'm dismissing it or stating that it's ridiculous - frankly, the fact that people of all body sizes and shapes appear in media is a good thing and we need more of it - rather, I was stating that if something like weight, which frankly doesn't change a character in the slightest as far as their life experiences go in today's world, would upset fans, then race which kind of has, would upset more. And this is still just a supporting character.

And you proved my point on that.

(I'm having a weird time where the **** I think I'm too harsh or rude on gets by with nary a comment, but the **** I mean nothing by is the stuff people get offended on - what the hell is wrong that my angry posts are received better then the ones I'm trying to be more chill with? Am I just that bad at brevity and not being an ass?)

[scary harpy]

I neither dismissed it nor said it was ridiculous - I don't really care that much about Etta Candy one way or another, to be frank. I just find something like weight to be a non-issue. It doesn't affect personality, personal experience (unless you want to make a "bullied for being overweight" statement, which is frankly getting more and more a silly as obesity becomes more and more an epidemic), or anything else. You can't change someone's race without changing so much of their background and culture. But there's no fat culture. A fat Etta or a skinny Etta doesn't change a thing about Etta. So it's not that I'm dismissing it or stating that it's ridiculous - frankly, the fact that people of all body sizes and shapes appear in media is a good thing and we need more of it - rather, I was stating that if something like weight, which frankly doesn't change a character in the slightest as far as their life experiences go in today's world, would upset fans, then race which kind of has, would upset more. And this is still just a supporting character.

And you proved my point on that.

We do need more people of all body sizes and shapes of healthy weights.

Speaking as someone overweight, there are a lot of health complications from being an unhealthy weight.

[Alpha]

I neither dismissed it nor said it was ridiculous - I don't really care that much about Etta Candy one way or another, to be frank. I just find something like weight to be a non-issue. It doesn't affect personality, personal experience (unless you want to make a "bullied for being overweight" statement, which is frankly getting more and more a silly as obesity becomes more and more an epidemic), or anything else. You can't change someone's race without changing so much of their background and culture. But there's no fat culture. A fat Etta or a skinny Etta doesn't change a thing about Etta. So it's not that I'm dismissing it or stating that it's ridiculous - frankly, the fact that people of all body sizes and shapes appear in media is a good thing and we need more of it - rather, I was stating that if something like weight, which frankly doesn't change a character in the slightest as far as their life experiences go in today's world, would upset fans, then race which kind of has, would upset more. And this is still just a supporting character.

And you proved my point on that.

(I'm having a weird time where the **** I think I'm too harsh or rude on gets by with nary a comment, but the **** I mean nothing by is the stuff people get offended on - what the hell is wrong that my angry posts are received better then the ones I'm trying to be more chill with? Am I just that bad at brevity and not being an ass?)

You obviously don't want to argue about it and I'm okay with that so I'll just leave two comments and you are free to just move pass them.

You don't like the character, so why do you presume to know what's important about her and what isn't? It would be like me telling you what sauces go well with tacos even though I don't even like tacos.

Etta Candy as a character was from the very beginning about empowerement. She was a physical contrast to Wonder Woman AND helped her message be even more clear. Young girls should love themselves and believe in themselves, and you don't have to be in shape like Diana to love yourself. In fact, if you put your mind to it, you can stand right next to her and do what she does. That's the classic version of Etta Candy. Other characters can talk about the health issues that come from obesity, but that's not what Etta Candy is for and I see no reason why she would be anything but worse off if she lost these qualities. There's literally no other characters in super hero comics like her.

And of course being fat affects your experience in society in so many ways, and again, those are things Etta Candy thrives in while others suffer through them. Think of Jack Black in female form and with Wonder Woman as their very best friend.

[Alpha]

Also, am I alone in thinking that while Jim Gordon having brown skin is great, Alfred should under no circumstances be anything but white?

[Will Evans]

Also, am I alone in thinking that while Jim Gordon having brown skin is great, Alfred should under no circumstances be anything but white?

Alfred’s daughter is already black anyway.

[bat39]

Also, am I alone in thinking that while Jim Gordon having brown skin is great, Alfred should under no circumstances be anything but white?

Makes sense. Alfred is supposed to be the quintessential English gentleman's gentleman.

With Gordon, race doesn't really play a role...especially not in an era where plenty of black man are top-ranking police officers.

Alfred’s daughter is already black anyway.

Incidentially, she was race-bent into being white on the Batwoman show.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that there was no significant controversy around that. But I guess most people simply don't know about it. (Also, technically, the Pre COIE version of her was white I believe...)

[Harpsikord]

The original version of Julia was white, yeah. I'd be willing to be the CW showrunners didn't know about it, or potentially didn't want it to seem like Kate was fetishizing black women since Julia was one of her love interests.

[BatmanJones]

We do need more people of all body sizes and shapes of healthy weights.

Speaking as someone overweight, there are a lot of health complications from being an unhealthy weight.

It would be nice to see a bald hero. Not one that shaves his head as a choice but an actually bald superhero. Maybe I’m wrong but I think we’ve had precisely zero. Meanwhile, Luthor, the baddest of the bad is bald as hell. Does being bald make one evil or simply unheroic?