Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[Alpha]

Alfred’s daughter is already black anyway.

Yeah but she doesn't serve as Bruce's butler who cooks, cleans, nurses him and does everything else he ever needs day and night and is rarely ever shown to have a private life. The most uncomfortable part of this dynamic to me is that Alfred is Bruce's father at this point but he still treats him like a butler and hasn't ever acknowledged this paternalistic relationship from what I've read. If this were a black british man or an british indian or a british asian it would be even more uncomfortable.

[scary harpy]

It would be nice to see a bald hero. Not one that shaves his head as a choice but an actually bald superhero. Maybe I’m wrong but I think we’ve had precisely zero. Meanwhile, Luthor, the baddest of the bad is bald as hell. Does being bald make one evil or simply unheroic?

Lex Luthor of the Legion of Justice is bald. Check out Crime Syndicate issue #3.

[Alpha]

It would be nice to see a bald hero. Not one that shaves his head as a choice but an actually bald superhero. Maybe I’m wrong but I think we’ve had precisely zero. Meanwhile, Luthor, the baddest of the bad is bald as hell. Does being bald make one evil or simply unheroic?

Did John Henry Irons ever have hair? Professor X is also bald. And Deadman. But I get your point. I feel like Barry Allen would have a receding hairline, but DC would never go there.

[skyvolt2000]

Why do you dismiss this criticism? What makes it ridiculous in your opinion? Did you like it when Amanda Waller became skinny in the new 52? Should Granny Goodness also get skinnier?

What you are talking about is Etta (like Faith at Valiant) represents someone who is not in the same mold as everyone else. We don't see overweigh or chubby or thick folks in comics. Even Ganke in Miles Morales's world is a little heavy.

The TOXIC at times push back to say black Johnny Storm would never happen with a thin Etta. Because a thin Etta or Waller have not been showcased as much as Johnny Storm. So to a Wonder Woman fan-they would be upset at a thin Etta because of what she represents. Yet those fans would never get to the level of toxic behavior we have seen with others.

This is not so simple when people like you yourself state that these media properties will always go back to their "prime" versions and any future generation characters will get swept aside. So if you can't ever do anything but the "original" Justice League and you can't change the race of anyone in the Justice League then you never actually have anything but a bunch of straight white people in focus. If all the diversity is in supporting and legacy characters because of years of racism and only being okay with racebending supporting characters you end up with the exact same problem. Corporate racism: racism while pretending to not be racist.

Then you need to revise and fix mistakes.

This is fiction-you are free to change and write history how you want since no movie follows the comics 100% DESPITE toxic fans screaming it does when POC show up.

What rule says I have to have Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson? I can easily put in Duke and say this is Batman 20 years into his run and his recent ward Duke. I still leave the door for Dick, Tim, Jason and Damian for other projects.

It's fiction.

[Vakanai]

We do need more people of all body sizes and shapes of healthy weights.

Speaking as someone overweight, there are a lot of health complications from being an unhealthy weight.

I'm also overweight, but I disagree with the sentiment about only showing people of healthy weights. It's unrealistic not to have unhealthy and fat people in the media. It may not be good, but I don't think we're still operating on the healthy and moral role model style of storytelling. We show psychopaths commiting murder in these books, why not people living unhealthy life styles?

You obviously don't want to argue about it and I'm okay with that so I'll just leave two comments and you are free to just move pass them.

You don't like the character, so why do you presume to know what's important about her and what isn't? It would be like me telling you what sauces go well with tacos even though I don't even like tacos.

Because I don't have to - being fat is literally not important to anyone. I'm fat, but it's not in any way, shape or form a defining aspect of who I am. It's kind of insulting honestly to have anyone describe body weight as a character trait.

Etta Candy as a character was from the very beginning about empowerement. She was a physical contrast to Wonder Woman AND helped her message be even more clear. Young girls should love themselves and believe in themselves, and you don't have to be in shape like Diana to love yourself. In fact, if you put your mind to it, you can stand right next to her and do what she does. That's the classic version of Etta Candy. Other characters can talk about the health issues that come from obesity, but that's not what Etta Candy is for and I see no reason why she would be anything but worse off if she lost these qualities. There's literally no other characters in super hero comics like her.

She's not empowered because she's fat though. She's empowered because she's confident in herself no matter what her body size is. It may be important to some readers that she's empowered and fat, but I doubt she'd feel any kind of self doubt or an identity crisis over being skinnier. Besides, there's a world of different healthy body shapes between skinny and fat. You can still be bigger and not be obese - and this from someone who is not a healthy weight.

And of course being fat affects your experience in society in so many ways, and again, those are things Etta Candy thrives in while others suffer through them. Think of Jack Black in female form and with Wonder Woman as their very best friend.

It's never affected my experience in society. I don't know what your experience is, but when I go out in society is doesn't take me long to find another fat person. I think we're the majority of the nation really. You can't tell me there's a world of negative societal impacts for you when you're in the majority. Maybe in decades past, but now we're just normal.

[Vakanai]

Also, am I alone in thinking that while Jim Gordon having brown skin is great, Alfred should under no circumstances be anything but white?

A lot of people hold onto Gordon needing to be a redhead before he goes gray - never mind the fact it's another example of a redhead being the one who always gets race swapped.

Personally though, the most important aspect to me when casting Gordon isn't the race of the actor, it's the mustache he can sport. You're casting for the mustache. After The Batman teaser, I'm satisfied on that.

Can't believe Gotham never had him grow the mustache. For shame.

[Vakanai]

It would be nice to see a bald hero. Not one that shaves his head as a choice but an actually bald superhero. Maybe I’m wrong but I think we’ve had precisely zero. Meanwhile, Luthor, the baddest of the bad is bald as hell. Does being bald make one evil or simply unheroic?

I mean, Prof. X over in Marvel counts...

[Vakanai]

Then you need to revise and fix mistakes.

This is fiction-you are free to change and write history how you want since no movie follows the comics 100% DESPITE toxic fans screaming it does when POC show up.

What rule says I have to have Bruce Wayne with Dick Grayson? I can easily put in Duke and say this is Batman 20 years into his run and his recent ward Duke. I still leave the door for Dick, Tim, Jason and Damian for other projects.

It's fiction.

Or just have Duke show up earlier. No film version will ever include every single Robin, so waiting for Bruce to go through 4 other Robins before Duke shows up is silly. It's not important to Duke's backstory when in Bruce's career he makes an appearance.

[Alpha]

Because I don't have to - being fat is literally not important to anyone. I'm fat, but it's not in any way, shape or form a defining aspect of who I am. It's kind of insulting honestly to have anyone describe body weight as a character trait.

She's not empowered because she's fat though. She's empowered because she's confident in herself no matter what her body size is. It may be important to some readers that she's empowered and fat, but I doubt she'd feel any kind of self doubt or an identity crisis over being skinnier. Besides, there's a world of different healthy body shapes between skinny and fat. You can still be bigger and not be obese - and this from someone who is not a healthy weight.

There's a clear distinction between what a character values in herself and why she is valuable as a character from a cultural standpoint (or really just from a storytelling perspective). I'm sure Etta would love herself regardless of what she looks like, although I honestly think she is supposed to enjoy her large body the same way plus size models do, but I'm not gonna insist.

From a storytelling perspective the point of Etta is to be a fat woman without any insecurities about her appearance and a unique love of herself, that acts like a very physical action hero despite her figure. Her own appearance and use in storytelling is what defines her alongside her humor. If you take that away she is just another confident woman of action, which we have plenty of, and it does nothing to expand the message of Wonder Woman.

So even if Etta herself doesn't feel like she has to be fat to be happy, her purpose in stories from a thematic perspective requires her to be. Etta needs to be fat not necessairly because she only appreciates her body that way, but because she only has thematic purpose if she has that transgressive body type for a woman of action.

[Alpha]

Can't believe Gotham never had him grow the mustache. For shame.

Didn't he have a moustache in the series finale?

Also, nobody has an opinion about Alfred's ethnicity beyond that one person that responded?

[Vakanai]

There's a clear distinction between what a character values in herself and why she is valuable as a character from a cultural standpoint (or really just from a storytelling perspective). I'm sure Etta would love herself regardless of what she looks like, although I honestly think she is supposed to enjoy her large body the same way plus size models do, but I'm not gonna insist.

But not every reader or fan cares about what something means culturally, some people just like the character because of her personality and couldn't care less about what her size is, or what her size represents culturally. Honestly, I'm not sure it's such a great thing that we heap such cultural value onto these fictional characters. Yes, we need more people of all body shapes and sizes in all media to better reflect us all. But who is that shape matters much less than that there's someone who is. I'm not saying Etta should be skinny, again, it's good to show overweight people can be heroes too. But in regards to what can or cannot be changed, I think that anything that doesn't change the character's experiences could be up for grabs perhaps - and as an overweight person myself, I don't think weight changes a thing about a character despite the cultural value.

From a storytelling perspective the point of Etta is to be a fat woman without any insecurities about her appearance and a unique love of herself, that acts like a very physical action hero despite her figure. Her own appearance and use in storytelling is what defines her alongside her humor. If you take that away she is just another confident woman of action, which we have plenty of, and it does nothing to expand the message of Wonder Woman.

I think this is where the crux of where our disagreement lies. I don't view characters by what they represent from a "storytelling perspective." To me it's immaterial what their imagined "role" is, only that they function as a good character. The only role Etta needs to fill for me is "friend of Wonder Woman." Beyond that, and the thing that is most important, isn't that she represents something but that she's a pleasure to read while she's on the page. Storytelling perspective is great for a morality play, but a decent writer can make a character and a story work without such simplistic notions. Basically, I don't think I can convince you, nor you can convince me, about what is important for a character, because our fundamental view about what's important for the story rests on different foundations. I get that for you symbolic meaning, archetypes, and characters designed to serve a specific function in story means a lot more to you than it does for me. I still love a carefully crafted story too, but for me the story is structured to serve the characters, not the other way around. If our values here are different, then I don't think it's possible for us to reconcile the Etta issue. It's not important to me that she's fat, because she's the same character regardless of her size - it matters to you not because it changes her character, but because it change's her character's function or symbolic purpose. And thus, the impasse.

So even if Etta herself doesn't feel like she has to be fat to be happy, her purpose in stories from a thematic perspective requires her to be. Etta needs to be fat not necessairly because she only appreciates her body that way, but because she only has thematic purpose if she has that transgressive body type for a woman of action.

To me, her purpose in stories is besides the point. I hold zero stock in a character's purpose in story. For me, the only important part is the character themselves, the function is meaningless because they shouldn't serve the story, the story should function to serve them. As long as the character is interesting in their own right outside of any function, then it's good. If the character is dependent on a function, then for me you've done it wrong. Like I said, we're butting heads on this because we come from fundamentally different approaches of characterization.

Didn't he have a moustache in the series finale?

Also, nobody has an opinion about Alfred's ethnicity beyond that one person that responded?

I wouldn't know, I dropped out of the series after season...2 or 3 I think? Whenever Supergirl started airing at the same time on another channel. But I kept seeing the commercials for the show after that and I never spotted a mustache.

[Alpha]

I think this is where the crux of where our disagreement lies. I don't view characters by what they represent from a "storytelling perspective." To me it's immaterial what their imagined "role" is, only that they function as a good character. The only role Etta needs to fill for me is "friend of Wonder Woman." Beyond that, and the thing that is most important, isn't that she represents something but that she's a pleasure to read while she's on the page. Storytelling perspective is great for a morality play, but a decent writer can make a character and a story work without such simplistic notions. Basically, I don't think I can convince you, nor you can convince me, about what is important for a character, because our fundamental view about what's important for the story rests on different foundations.

Fair enough. It's not the only reason why I think she should be fat, but it's the most important one so your argument stands.

On a separate note do you think Blade must be black? Your answer to this has no bearing on Etta Candy, I'm just curious. And I don't read Blade comics so I wouldn't be able to discuss in detail, but it seems to me like his ethnicity hasn't affected his life much in stories.

[Vakanai]

Fair enough. It's not the only reason why I think she should be fat, but it's the most important one so your argument stands.

On a separate note do you think Blade must be black? Your answer to this has no bearing on Etta Candy, I'm just curious. And I don't read Blade comics so I wouldn't be able to discuss in detail, but it seems to me like his ethnicity hasn't affected his life much in stories.

Maybe, maybe not - I'm not in a position to speak of comics Blade, only ever read Spider-Man some for Marvel, so I'm not sure. Only seen the movie version (which I loved). I know I would be against it, just because to me racebending is a bad thing, and whitewashing characters is the worst racebending. But I haven't a clue how it'd affect him - I mean, it still weirds me out to think that he apparently wasn't a half-vampire Daywalker in the comics.

[PCN24454]

There is something wrong if you prefer a character to be who they've always been and don't want them to be different. And I'm not speaking about just whatever color their skin is on the page. When you change a character's race you fundamentally change tons about them and the context of their life. Why wouldn't someone want Tim to be race changed to black? Because the person likes Tim and doesn't want what would be an absolutely incredibly encompassing retcon to change who he is or what he's done in his life. You can't just pretend there's no difference in being white or black or asian or native american in America. To do so is changing a color and ignoring what makes people diverse.

This isn't really an issue in external media, which essentially completely rewrite characters with only vague references to the comic stories that won't be affected by racial context. But changing already existing, long standing characters will do that. The only other way is, I guess, just do everyone like Huntress and make a new character with the same name. Which is also what they tried to do with Wally and it went bad.

Because it's the Ship of Theseus.

Which one is the real Tim? The one made with all the old parts or the one made with all the new parts?

[Vakanai]

Because it's the Ship of Theseus.

Which one is the real Tim? The one made with all the old parts or the one made with all the new parts?

Easy answer - the one who's the best Robin is clearly the real Tim.