Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[scary harpy]

Tim is far from redundant. Honestly, if your only criteria for a good character is race....be prepared for horrible characters. The writers won't have to do much to please you if that's true. Tim, not withstanding his somehow evil color and eyes has a totally different personality than his predecessors and indeed his successor. And a different skill set and approach to Robining. While they certainly can racebend him, he neither needs it nor will he be improved by it. If a character can be improved by such a change, than so be it. OTOH, if it won't improve the character in some way other than making him or her the correct color or sexuality, don't do it.

Don't think I said anything like that. I'll ask you to not put words in my mouth.

While they certainly can racebend him, he neither needs it nor will he be improved by it. If a character can be improved by such a change, than so be it. OTOH, if it won't improve the character in some way other than making him or her the correct color or sexuality, don't do it.

We may have different ideas about improvement.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Ok now that I think about it for what character has this change been a net positive? Way to early on Alan Scott, definitely not for Lightning Lad. Lightning/Light Lass was a change but I am not sure if it was a positive one. I still think of Ayla with Timber Wolf before I go, oh wait 5YL retconned that into Shrinking Violet and don't get me started on Element Lad that Shavaun Erin swerve did way more damage than anything positive.

[Aahz]

Is there even one character who got more successful after such a change?

[titanfan]

Is there even one character who got more successful after such a change?

If Aquaman was drawn to look like Jason Momoa from now on, I don't think there would be many complaints....

But for the most part, I would say that creators are choosing to race swap/sexuality swap characters who aren't really very popular anyway, in order to try something different with them. You hardly ever see this happening to any major players.

[Aahz]

If Aquaman was drawn to look like Jason Momoa from now on, I don't think there would be many complaints....

"Not many complains" is not the same as "more successfull".

But for the most part, I would say that creators are choosing to race swap/sexuality swap characters who aren't really very popular anyway, in order to try something different with them. You hardly ever see this happening to any major players.

But has it ever made a character popular or at least more intersting?

[Vakanai]

Is there even one character who got more successful after such a change?

Iris West. Although that is less to do with her race on the Flash show, and more the fact that there's a Flash show. So it didn't cause her to be more successful, but her success came after so...

Success here of course just means wider recognition to the wider masses. It's not like the character herself is bringing in any kind of money. Mostly just because superhero love interests don't make much money. There's few exceptions, mostly love interests who are themselves superheroes/villains. Catwoman is the biggest example of that, but there's also Mera. The only civilian love interest who can sell a comic is Lois Lane.

[Alpha]

Iris West. Although that is less to do with her race on the Flash show, and more the fact that there's a Flash show. So it didn't cause her to be more successful, but her success came after so...

Success here of course just means wider recognition to the wider masses. It's not like the character herself is bringing in any kind of money. Mostly just because superhero love interests don't make much money. There's few exceptions, mostly love interests who are themselves superheroes/villains. Catwoman is the biggest example of that, but there's also Mera. The only civilian love interest who can sell a comic is Lois Lane.

Jimmy Olsen can also sell a comic.

[Vakanai]

Jimmy Olsen can also sell a comic.

He's not usually considered a love interest though. Although that'd be one direction the upcoming Superman reboot could go in I suppose...

[Alpha]

Yeah nevermind my bad.

[Dred]

incorrect, but you tried it.

They fit the same age group and are generally the most composed and least trauma stricken of the Batman sidekicks. They're the normal, authorial insert into the Batman universe. They both set out on the path that would eventually lead them to the Batfamily by their own sense of justice rather than being taken in by Bruce because bad things happened to them. They are INCREDIBLY similar in role within the Batfamily. I can't stress this part enough.

I know you are a big Duke fan and probably don't care to see him compared to Tim but this isn't really about who I care about favoritism wise. Their differences come up more in solo situations, or in non-bat team up situations (like Tim's role in the Titans makes him a much different person to his other roles) but if you can't see the glaring similarities they have within the Batfamily then I believe you are intentionally overlooking them.

[Restingvoice]

OP Answer

Someone with different race and sexuality when growing up and living in a certain place at a certain time period has different experience and approach to life to other race and sexuality within the same area. The degree of difference vary depending on the culture of that place.

That difference, however small, should inform how the character is written, act, and react, in their back story, present or future story.

Basically what I'm saying is there should be a conscious and active mindset by the writer to write them as a member of that race and sexuality within that environment

Not just oh yeah they're exactly the same

Unless they're lucky enough to live in an area where race and sexuality literally don't matter but you know that kind of place doesn't exist. Even if the environment is that ideal, within their personal home life there's a certain culture or habit that's going to be different.

So that difference should inform the character, even if the reader doesn't realize it at first glance.

Like for example, Dixon wrote Tim Drake as Jewish. It was never said in story, it was never official, but certain culture, habit, or portrayal has some fans caught on. They suspected he is, and confirmed when they asked Dixon.

Like that. Something that maybe not all people see, but people related to that experience can catch. That kind of difference that is genuine when a writer knows what he's doing can show up even if it's never said outright.

[Agent Z]

This does imply that Tim fans wouldn't even be able to conceive Tim as a character past any actors skin color
I'd like to think the costume and being a geeky loser techkid Robin would reflect the character but its not the same for every fan
I don't like Duke being the go to substitute every time the question of raceswapping a Robin comes up. Duke doesn't bring the same dynamic to Batman(or the other Robins/Titans) that any of the other robins do. The story would change by including him mind you.

All of Batman's sidekicks have different dynamics with him. Duke not being like the other Robins isn't a good reason not to use him when being different from them is the point.

[Gitagon]

A mixed race dude who clearly leans more on the white side in terms of features and skin color is suddenly black when he is cast as Tim Drake. Is it really that hard for Americans to let go of the one drop rule.

Anyway, I'm team Duke too. No need to racebend these characters when all media clearly does not reflect that.

Even for Iris, she's black in the TV show and movies but still her original race in the comics. Same for Aquaman, Momoa is actually half-white and is biracial so you would think it would be easier to pull that off in the comics. But again, the one drop rule only works in one direction and Aquaman has to be "pure" white for some reason otherwise people will start saying he was race-bent. While Momoa's version is only recognized as Polynesian despite being half white both for the actor and character in the DCEU. Basically, DC can't even let comic Aquaman be 50% white, he must be 100% Aryan, or else! And this is all despite a billion dollar film. They copied Momoa's tattoo though but tossed any actual authenticity out the window.

So personally, I just prefer actual POC characters being adapted on the big screen. Not characters whose onscreen look will never be represented on the page.

[Aahz]

Duke doesn't bring the same dynamic to Batman(or the other Robins/Titans) that any of the other robins do.

Not really having more a mentor student than a father son relation ship, and operating mostly solo instead of a side kick is pretty similar to Tim.

You could maybe argue Duke has with the "We are Robins" his own team, but Tim had also often Steph around (and we have seen Tim work with We are Robin members in Future state).

When it comes to his dynamic with the other Robins (or Batfamily members in general), the really big difference is that sofar no one has actually put much effort into developing one. He was together with Cass in Outsiders, and had a short story with Jason in a anthology but that's basically it since he became Signal.

[bat39]

I'm totally against changing a character's race or sexuality for political reasons i.e. virtue-signalling, acting ''woke'' or pandering to a social/political interest group.

When it comes to doing it for more creative reasons, particularly when it comes to wanting to cast a particular actor for a role in an adaptation, I'm a lot more open to it.

Some 'successful' examples include Iris West on the Flash TV show, Perry White in the Snyderverse, and Selina Kyle and Jim Gordon in the upcoming Reeves' Batman movie. (Kravitz looks so much like Selina that I just don't notice it...Wright not at all looking like the comic-book Gordon is a lot more distracting, but the way he carries himself and the performance, even from the trailer, shows that it won't be much of an issue.)

I feel race-bending works best with secondary characters or characters with whom it won't cause a controversy or become the predominant topic of discussion. For instance, apart from a dedicated group of fans slinging virtriol (a lot of it racially motivated) against the actress, I don't think Iris West being black has been a cause of major controversy. And Wally being black on the show hasn't been much of an issue either because it makes sense given that the West family on the show is black. Contrast this with when they made Wally West black in the comics, where the whole point of the exercise was to show ''how diverse and woke we are now'', and someone even said triumphantly that ''Wally West will forever be black now!" That...didn't end well.

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.