Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[4sake Baned]

Halpern? Who is Halpern?

Alfred Lol my voice text messed up my bad lol

[married guy]

I have to admit I am not a fan of it at all.

I thought making Alan Scott gay is pointless. I get that it was entirely possible, and if he WAS he WOULD hide it due to the times (and homosexuality being illegal) but it just rubbed me the wrong way.
I liked the dynamic with Alan and Todd. Now that is COMPLETELY thrown out the window.

I believe making new characters is a better way to go.
Vibe, Jaime, Ryan Choi - all BRILLIANT additions to the DCU. Take the time to create well rounded characters and they'll stick.
Leave established characters alone.

[Johnrevenge]

Take the time to create well rounded characters and they'll stick.

That maybe could have worked decades ago. Nowadays new character are barely given the chance to stick because fans tend to attack them or accuse them of being "woke". If Vibe, Jaime Reyes or Ryan Choi would have been created recently they wouldn't have lasted at all and would have quickly fell into oblivion.

The only option left is using established characters.

[Will Evans]

Of the comics Avengers roster, Marvel has changed the sexuality of a few members over the years. Though by coincidence, these are ones that haven’t showed up in the MCU yet:

Hercules, Moondragon, Demolition Man, Living Lightning

[Johnrevenge]

Of the comics Avengers roster, Marvel has changed the sexuality of a few members over the years. Though by coincidence, these are ones that haven’t showed up in the MCU yet:

Hercules, Moondragon, Demolition Man, Living Lightning

Moondragon's sexuality was more or less hinted during her days in the Defenders and her interactions with Cloud.

And Hercules is based in his mythologic counterpart, who was bisexual (it was about time that the comic version was also confirmed as bisexual too). Although with the confirmation that Russel Crowe will be Zeus in the next movie of Thor, I wouldn't be surprised to see Hercules making finally his MCU debut.

[Aahz]

That maybe could have worked decades ago. Nowadays new character are barely given the chance to stick because fans tend to attack them or accuse them of being "woke". If Vibe, Jaime Reyes or Ryan Choi would have been created recently they wouldn't have lasted at all and would have quickly fell into oblivion.

I think they have kind of done it with diverse Legacy characters. Especially Marvels All New All Diverent where they iirc replaced every somewhat popular character except Peter Parker, was just to much at the same time.

DC New Age of Heroes (which were also mostly diverse Characters) wasn't met with that kind of backlash (but it was probably still to much at the same time to really work out).

[achilles]

That maybe could have worked decades ago. Nowadays new character are barely given the chance to stick because fans tend to attack them or accuse them of being "woke". If Vibe, Jaime Reyes or Ryan Choi would have been created recently they wouldn't have lasted at all and would have quickly fell into oblivion.

The only option left is using established characters.

Damian Wayne and Naomi among others would beg to differ. I think fans accuse characters of being to "woke" when they are too woke, rather than as a first thing to do. And what is the status of Milestone with DC? I mean if they can use all of those characters then they've got a gold mine of black characters who are already interesting and have some fan bases.

[Vakanai]

That maybe could have worked decades ago. Nowadays new character are barely given the chance to stick because fans tend to attack them or accuse them of being "woke". If Vibe, Jaime Reyes or Ryan Choi would have been created recently they wouldn't have lasted at all and would have quickly fell into oblivion.

The only option left is using established characters.

I disagree with that. Just move these characters out of the direct market and they'll do fine. The current comic book model is the problem, so just change that.

[J. D. Guy]

Of the comics Avengers roster, Marvel has changed the sexuality of a few members over the years. Though by coincidence, these are ones that haven’t showed up in the MCU yet:

Hercules, Moondragon, Demolition Man, Living Lightning

Was Living Lightning's sexual orientation a change, though? Genuinely not sure.

Damian Wayne and Naomi among others would beg to differ. I think fans accuse characters of being to "woke" when they are too woke, rather than as a first thing to do. And what is the status of Milestone with DC? I mean if they can use all of those characters then they've got a gold mine of black characters who are already interesting and have some fan bases.

Damian Wayne is not that new. His proper debut was in 2006, which means he appeared the same year Jaime debuted. That was 15 years ago, and much has changed in the culture of older comic book readers and fans. Since 2006, the reality is that said older comic book readers and fans have become more and more closed off on accepting, let alone embracing, new characters and new character concepts. And Naomi being one of the exceptions, unfortunately, does not change the reality of this culture among older comic book readers and fans. Because for every Naomi or Kamala Khan (who's also not that young herself by this point), there are more cool and fun new characters and character concepts that are rejected out of turn and never allowed to stick.

And speaking on Milestone as an aside, it's generally considered that any success and goldmine that lay within the Milestone Universe is Milestone's alone and do not absolve DC from neglecting the creation of new diverse characters and characters concepts and the better use of old ones. Nor, for that matter, does it absolve the comic reading fandom culture of stigmatizing such new characters in mainline DC continuity.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Never been a major issue for me as long as the story is done well, and doesn’t feel forced.

[Samm]

That maybe could have worked decades ago. Nowadays new character are barely given the chance to stick because fans tend to attack them or accuse them of being "woke". If Vibe, Jaime Reyes or Ryan Choi would have been created recently they wouldn't have lasted at all and would have quickly fell into oblivion.

The only option left is using established characters.

I was around when Jaime and Ryan (Jason too) were created, back on the old DC boards and CBR forums and believe me when I tell you they got the same hate thrown their way that characters created today get. The terminology was different but the attitude was the same. Never saw so many racist remarks in my life! The difference though is that DC stuck it through, at least with Jaime (since the killed off Ryan for a cool minute) and they’re now popular characters (Jaime being the most popular from that era).

Basically time and exposure build up a fanbase. DC needs to start doing that again for their new creations!

[lemonpeace]

I was around when Jaime and Ryan (Jason too) were created, back on the old DC boards and CBR forums and believe me when I tell you they got the same hate thrown their way that characters created today get. The terminology was different but the attitude was the same. Never saw so many racist remarks in my life! The difference though is that DC stuck it through, at least with Jaime (since the killed off Ryan for a cool minute) and they’re now popular characters (Jaime being the most popular from that era).

Basically time and exposure build up a fanbase. DC needs to start doing that again for their new creations!

don't mind me just quoting for emphasis because that was some real ****.

[Will Evans]

I was around when Jaime and Ryan (Jason too) were created, back on the old DC boards and CBR forums and believe me when I tell you they got the same hate thrown their way that characters created today get. The terminology was different but the attitude was the same. Never saw so many racist remarks in my life! The difference though is that DC stuck it through, at least with Jaime (since the killed off Ryan for a cool minute) and they’re now popular characters (Jaime being the most popular from that era).

Basically time and exposure build up a fanbase. DC needs to start doing that again for their new creations!

Jason Rusch Firestorm back then as well

[BatmanJones]

Of the comics Avengers roster, Marvel has changed the sexuality of a few members over the years. Though by coincidence, these are ones that haven’t showed up in the MCU yet:

Hercules, Moondragon, Demolition Man, Living Lightning

I don’t think of Alan Scott’s sexuality as being changed, I think of him as coming out of the closet. Literally nothing ever suggested he wasn’t gay but closeted. As in life, we don’t know that someone is gay until they tell us. Except for stereotypical, thankfully largely discarded notions of sissies or tomboys, anybody could be gay for decades without anyone knowing about it.

It’s not a retcon, it’s new information that we just didn’t have before. I don’t care how much sex he had with women or even if he lusted after them in some loud sort of way, we’re pretty much all on a spectrum and many closeted gay men from his era were plenty capable of sex with women and may have even genuinely identified that way, even to themselves, before realizing that was a matter of societal influence.

It’s hard to understand that unless you’re of an age when you can remember that the worst thing you could call a man or boy was “gay” or some more horrible slur for “gay” nor of an age when you can remember the experience of someone completely surprising you by coming out of the closet along with the later understanding of how painful it was to keep that secret.

We learn new things about characters all the time, and if those things aren’t about sexuality, it’s never an issue. Alan Scott wasn’t changed into a gay man. He was always a gay man, we’re only now finding out about it.

[scary harpy]

I was around when Jaime and Ryan (Jason too) were created, back on the old DC boards and CBR forums and believe me when I tell you they got the same hate thrown their way that characters created today get. The terminology was different but the attitude was the same. Never saw so many racist remarks in my life! The difference though is that DC stuck it through, at least with Jaime (since the killed off Ryan for a cool minute) and they’re now popular characters (Jaime being the most popular from that era).

Basically time and exposure build up a fanbase. DC needs to start doing that again for their new creations!

Jason Rusch Firestorm back then as well

DC needs to do with Ted Kord and Ray Palmer what they did with Barry Allen; have them join Justice Incarnate...whatever that is.

This way, Wally West, Ryan Choi, Jaime Reyes and Jason Rusch can assume their heroic identities with minimal trauma to the fanbase.

This way, fans do not lose their favorites, their favorites just went offstage. I don't know the current situation with Firestorm.

I don’t think of Alan Scott’s sexuality as being changed, I think of him as coming out of the closet. Literally nothing ever suggested he wasn’t gay but closeted. As in life, we don’t know that someone is gay until they tell us. Except for stereotypical, thankfully largely discarded notions of sissies or tomboys, anybody could be gay for decades without anyone knowing about it.

It’s not a retcon, it’s new information that we just didn’t have before. I don’t care how much sex he had with women or even if he lusted after them in some loud sort of way, we’re pretty much all on a spectrum and many closeted gay men from his era were plenty capable of sex with women and may have even genuinely identified that way, even to themselves, before realizing that was a matter of societal influence.

It’s hard to understand that unless you’re of an age when you can remember that the worst thing you could call a man or boy was “gay” or some more horrible slur for “gay” nor of an age when you can remember the experience of someone completely surprising you by coming out of the closet along with the later understanding of how painful it was to keep that secret.

We learn new things about characters all the time, and if those things aren’t about sexuality, it’s never an issue. Alan Scott wasn’t changed into a gay man. He was always a gay man, we’re only now finding out about it.

Well said.

Thank You.