Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[Aahz]

I grew up with kids whose fathers were coming out of the closet after having lived in it for most of their adult lives right into middle age, filled with shame and self-loathing, but also filled with love of their families. That’s not even about representation, it’s about telling an interesting and important story. It’s heavy and it’s real and it’s emotionally complex and it’s filled with ethical dilemmas like so many great stories are. And it’s very different than just learning something new about an old character.

But the thing is that is not Allan's story, he didn't knew about his kids until they were already adults.

[BatmanJones]

But the thing is that is not Allan's story, he didn't knew about his kids until they were already adults.

That’s only a piece of it. While he lied to himself, he lied to his wife. And he believed he didn’t have a choice about either. He also didn’t come out to his children until well after he knew of them, even for years after learning his son was gay.

[Aahz]

But still that didn't happened in the 1940s iirc Allan didn't get married to Molly untill after he knew of his kids (and Thorn directly ran away after the marriage ...).
And I'm not really sure how close Allan and his kids even were...

So Allan isn't really bast character for that kind of story imo.

[Lightning Rider]

Bart Allen, Impulse, is about to be black in the Arrowverse.

They’ve already cast the actor.

Link please?

[Alpha]

They announced it a month ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/collide...art-allen/amp/

[The Darknight Detective]

Is there a gay way of thinking or behaving? Surely you mean something other than “talking gay” or limp wrists. What does gay “by his actions” mean outside of one’s sex life, which we wouldn’t have seen in old comics anyway?

I most definitely wasn't talking about some stereotypical "gayness" in my previous post. I'm talking about, i.e. a female character who is gushing about this imale or that one in her own internal monologue, but later on her attraction for men just disappears in her thinking. That just makes no sense to me. Now talking about the opposite sex is a different matter, because that may just be a disguise in itself.

[Will Evans]

Yeah, the Titans don't have to be white at all especially for Raven and Starfire who aren't even fully human and have grey and orange skin.

DC quickly tossed Dick's heritage right out the window when it was time to cast a white guy.

Roy had Native American ties but ultimately he's still a white guy.

And while many are only talking about race, in terms of sexuality, there's tons of characters who don't have to be straight either. Unfortunately, DC and many people in general only seems to operate on binaries of straight and gay. Nothing in between. It would be great to have more bi or pan characters like Constantine. I thought this made more sense too for Kaldur but it seems the comics went their own way compared to Young Justice. We know he was genuinely in love with Tula from his own perspective (unless he was straight up tricking himself) so it would have made more sense for him to be a bi character.

Also out of most "so called" bi characters, it isn't a coincidence that most are women. Look a Batman's cast for example: all the 3 Gotham City Sirens are Bi yet I can't think of a male Bi character of the same level in Bat books despite DC pumping them out in droves.

I don't think the Superman cast has any prominent LGBT character either. Same for Supergirl, that's probably why the show had to create new LGBT characters themselves.

As for WW as the last part of the Trinity, most of the stuff with her or LGBT Amazons is mostly limited to vague statements. Sometimes stuff like Hippolyta x Phillipus get outright erased, and even then I don't think they did as much as kiss. As for Diana herself, I don't think anyone who doesn't follow this stuff closely even knows she's bi. It was basically mentioned once then dropped out the window.

Flash, Green Lantern, basically all main DC franchises are like that. Mostly white, mostly straight. LGBT characters are basically relegated to side titles.

I think Natasha Irons is the most known lesbian Superman character, if you don’t count the Legion of SuperHeroes, which Ahmad a few LGBTQ members. There’s the new Maxima as well. Traci 13 started in the Superman books.

Maggie Sawyer started as a Superman supporting character until the Bat franchise made her a Batwoman supporting character.

[Harpsikord]

No disagreements there except for maybe the Wally part. The JLU and YJ versions of Wally West still has a lingering fan base.

I can give you the YJ Wally but I think the JLU Flash is generally just regarded as 'The Flash,' normally.

Can I ask what point you're trying to make with this example?

Outside adaptations don't really care much about characterizations/stories from the comics and the majority of viewers are just going to accept whatever because that's what they know. On the show, Wally is Iris' long-lost brother, has a dead mom, has Joe for a father, became Kid Flash around 20, and a lot of other non-race related changes to the point that version and his story is radically different from the comics.

So no matter the ethnicity, I wouldn't really call the show's version comic accurate. Now it can still be successful because the majority of the audience doesn't know anything else, but I'm not sure anyone else is really debating that?

I think my point with the example is stronger than the point that you're trying to make by calling it out: when people think of Wally West now one of the clearest versions that people will think of is the Arrowverse Wally who is a black man. If Wally shows up in the Flash film, he will be black. To the public consciousness Wally West is, going forward, going to be thought of as a black man and there's no problem with that.

Despite the fact that yes, Wally's origin was changed in the Flash show, it doesn't mean that the character acts any differently from how Wally typically acts in the comics. He doesn't. The show interpretation is a faithful adaptation, which is the important thing. And in general the fact that it exists and is genuinely popular means that more people have seen that version of Wally than they have the classic ginger version even despite his appearances in Young Justice or Teen Titans or as "The Flash" in the Justice League animated series. That said, do I think that it'll lead to Wally being racebent in the comics? No. I don't. Especially not when a character with the name Wallace West who already has a similar appearance to the show's Wally exists - but the chances of them ever having more than one Wallace West on screen anywhere are incredibly slim, and if they have to pick a character to adapt it'll be the original 9 times out of 10. And they'll probably adapt him as a black man because they don't want to run the risk of whitewashing claims.

And that's fine. Because Wally doesn't need to be white even if he is ginger.

[Rend20]

I think my point with the example is stronger than the point that you're trying to make by calling it out:

Well, that's good because I was genuinely curious rather than trying to make a point?

Though I do disagree that the CW is a "faithful adaptation" of Wally because I don't think it is. Now I think that has far more to do with the show doing their own thing and tossing some Wally-traits Barry's way than the ethnicity change, but the fact the character's set-up is so different means it has to be a fundamentally different character from the comics.

[BatmanJones]

I most definitely wasn't talking about some stereotypical "gayness" in my previous post. I'm talking about, i.e. a female character who is gushing about this imale or that one in her own internal monologue, but later on her attraction for men just disappears in her thinking. That just makes no sense to me. Now talking about the opposite sex is a different matter, because that may just be a disguise in itself.

I figured you couldn’t have meant those stereotypes, I just couldn’t figure out what you did mean. What you said makes sense although many gay men have been so deep in the closet that they believe the lie themselves. That could do to their inner monologue what you suggested about talking aloud. Thanks for answering my question.

[The Darknight Detective]

I figured you couldn’t have meant those stereotypes, I just couldn’t figure out what you did mean. What you said makes sense although many gay men have been so deep in the closet that they believe the lie themselves. That could do to their inner monologue what you suggested about talking aloud. Thanks for answering my question.

No problem, Bats. As for what you just posted, I can certainly buy that, but that subconscious self deception would need to be need to be at least mentioned somewhere instead of being ignored.

[Digifiend]

Well, that's good because I was genuinely curious rather than trying to make a point?

Though I do disagree that the CW is a "faithful adaptation" of Wally because I don't think it is. Now I think that has far more to do with the show doing their own thing and tossing some Wally-traits Barry's way than the ethnicity change, but the fact the character's set-up is so different means it has to be a fundamentally different character from the comics.

Honestly, CW Wally is more like Max Mercury than comics Wally. He engages in zen meditation.

[Harpsikord]

Well, that's good because I was genuinely curious rather than trying to make a point?

Ah, my bad. I'm used to so many people trying to make a counterpoint that I tend toward defensive.

JThough I do disagree that the CW is a "faithful adaptation" of Wally because I don't think it is. Now I think that has far more to do with the show doing their own thing and tossing some Wally-traits Barry's way than the ethnicity change, but the fact the character's set-up is so different means it has to be a fundamentally different character from the comics.

That's fair though I still think they act similarly enough for him to be recognizable.

[Veni]

I can give you the YJ Wally but I think the JLU Flash is generally just regarded as 'The Flash,' normally.



I think my point with the example is stronger than the point that you're trying to make by calling it out: when people think of Wally West now one of the clearest versions that people will think of is the Arrowverse Wally who is a black man. If Wally shows up in the Flash film, he will be black. To the public consciousness Wally West is, going forward, going to be thought of as a black man and there's no problem with that.

Despite the fact that yes, Wally's origin was changed in the Flash show, it doesn't mean that the character acts any differently from how Wally typically acts in the comics. He doesn't. The show interpretation is a faithful adaptation, which is the important thing. And in general the fact that it exists and is genuinely popular means that more people have seen that version of Wally than they have the classic ginger version even despite his appearances in Young Justice or Teen Titans or as "The Flash" in the Justice League animated series. That said, do I think that it'll lead to Wally being racebent in the comics? No. I don't. Especially not when a character with the name Wallace West who already has a similar appearance to the show's Wally exists - but the chances of them ever having more than one Wallace West on screen anywhere are incredibly slim, and if they have to pick a character to adapt it'll be the original 9 times out of 10. And they'll probably adapt him as a black man because they don't want to run the risk of whitewashing claims.

And that's fine. Because Wally doesn't need to be white even if he is ginger.

Young Justice, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited are very popular outside the USA. People still love ginger Wally. They will never forget him. Plus Hollywood no longer makes films for the American audience only. Most of the box office for American films comes internationally (especially from China). Hollywood is pandering to the international audience, not to the American one. The international audience doesn't care about whitewashing, because we are no obsessed with race. Other countries have their own tv shows and movies which are becoming popular worldwide (thanks to Netflix).

[Harpsikord]

Young Justice, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited are pretty popular outside the USA. People still love ginger Wally.

Again, I'm not saying that people don't love ginger Wally but the Flash in Justice League and JLU is just the Flash to people. They don't know the difference between Wally and Barry or any of the other Flash's, and would be inclined to think that it's Barry in that show.

They will never forget him.

No one is saying people will forget ginger Wally. In fact, I say in the same post you quoted that he's not likely to be racebent in comics.

Plus Hollywood no longer makes films for the American audience only. Most of the box office for American films comes internationally (especially from China). Hollywood is pandering to the international audience, not to the American one. The international audience doesn't care about whitewashing, because we are no obsessed with race. Other countries have their own tv shows and movies which are becoming popular worldwide (thanks to Netflix).

Did you miss the part where the West family in the DCEU is already established as being black and where outside of cartoons Wally's family is seen as black and Wally himself is probably seen as black? China has already seen a black Iris West as well as Wally West because surely the Flash show has reached it, and they were presumably more than okay with that. I don't think DC could afford the potential backlash that would come from making the West's white in any future film or cartoon now - especially not Wally when Wally is likely going to be representing two separate characters, one of whom is black in the comics.