Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[achilles]

I'm totally against changing a character's race or sexuality for political reasons i.e. virtue-signalling, acting ''woke'' or pandering to a social/political interest group.

When it comes to doing it for more creative reasons, particularly when it comes to wanting to cast a particular actor for a role in an adaptation, I'm a lot more open to it.

Some 'successful' examples include Iris West on the Flash TV show, Perry White in the Snyderverse, and Selina Kyle and Jim Gordon in the upcoming Reeves' Batman movie. (Kravitz looks so much like Selina that I just don't notice it...Wright not at all looking like the comic-book Gordon is a lot more distracting, but the way he carries himself and the performance, even from the trailer, shows that it won't be much of an issue.)

I feel race-bending works best with secondary characters or characters with whom it won't cause a controversy or become the predominant topic of discussion. For instance, apart from a dedicated group of fans slinging virtriol (a lot of it racially motivated) against the actress, I don't think Iris West being black has been a cause of major controversy. And Wally being black on the show hasn't been much of an issue either because it makes sense given that the West family on the show is black. Contrast this with when they made Wally West black in the comics, where the whole point of the exercise was to show ''how diverse and woke we are now'', and someone even said triumphantly that ''Wally West will forever be black now!" That...didn't end well.

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.

I'm quoting this post because it summarizes my own views on whether you should race or gender or sexuality bend a character. Again, Jeff Goldblum's famous Jurassic Park advice applies to this subject as well as cloning dinos. Consider carefully before acting.

[scary harpy]

I'm totally against changing a character's race or sexuality for political reasons i.e. virtue-signalling, acting ''woke'' or pandering to a social/political interest group.

When it comes to doing it for more creative reasons, particularly when it comes to wanting to cast a particular actor for a role in an adaptation, I'm a lot more open to it.

Some 'successful' examples include Iris West on the Flash TV show, Perry White in the Snyderverse, and Selina Kyle and Jim Gordon in the upcoming Reeves' Batman movie. (Kravitz looks so much like Selina that I just don't notice it...Wright not at all looking like the comic-book Gordon is a lot more distracting, but the way he carries himself and the performance, even from the trailer, shows that it won't be much of an issue.)

I feel race-bending works best with secondary characters or characters with whom it won't cause a controversy or become the predominant topic of discussion. For instance, apart from a dedicated group of fans slinging virtriol (a lot of it racially motivated) against the actress, I don't think Iris West being black has been a cause of major controversy. And Wally being black on the show hasn't been much of an issue either because it makes sense given that the West family on the show is black. Contrast this with when they made Wally West black in the comics, where the whole point of the exercise was to show ''how diverse and woke we are now'', and someone even said triumphantly that ''Wally West will forever be black now!" That...didn't end well.

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.

I'm quoting this post because it summarizes my own views on whether you should race or gender or sexuality bend a character. Again, Jeff Goldblum's famous Jurassic Park advice applies to this subject as well as cloning dinos. Consider carefully before acting.

Very well stated, bat39.

Now, we must define primary, secondary and tertiary characters.

Specifically, is Tim Drake a primary or secondary character?

[Vakanai]

I'm totally against changing a character's race or sexuality for political reasons i.e. virtue-signalling, acting ''woke'' or pandering to a social/political interest group.

When it comes to doing it for more creative reasons, particularly when it comes to wanting to cast a particular actor for a role in an adaptation, I'm a lot more open to it.

Some 'successful' examples include Iris West on the Flash TV show, Perry White in the Snyderverse, and Selina Kyle and Jim Gordon in the upcoming Reeves' Batman movie. (Kravitz looks so much like Selina that I just don't notice it...Wright not at all looking like the comic-book Gordon is a lot more distracting, but the way he carries himself and the performance, even from the trailer, shows that it won't be much of an issue.)

I feel race-bending works best with secondary characters or characters with whom it won't cause a controversy or become the predominant topic of discussion. For instance, apart from a dedicated group of fans slinging virtriol (a lot of it racially motivated) against the actress, I don't think Iris West being black has been a cause of major controversy. And Wally being black on the show hasn't been much of an issue either because it makes sense given that the West family on the show is black. Contrast this with when they made Wally West black in the comics, where the whole point of the exercise was to show ''how diverse and woke we are now'', and someone even said triumphantly that ''Wally West will forever be black now!" That...didn't end well.

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.

On Catwoman in particular, it helps that she's actually been black multiple times in media. Eartha Kitt in the Adam West Batman show, Halle Berry in Catwoman (even if the movie is **** - for reasons other than race), and even recently in the DC Superhero Girls cartoon.

[Vakanai]

Very well stated, bat39.

Now, we must define primary, secondary and tertiary characters.

Specifically, is Tim Drake a primary or secondary character?

I'm a Tim Drake fan, but even so I have to admit of all Robins he's tertiary.
Still shouldn't be race bent though. Just use Duke.

[scary harpy]

Very well stated, bat39.

Now, we must define primary, secondary and tertiary characters.

Specifically, is Tim Drake a primary or secondary character?

I'm a Tim Drake fan, but even so I have to admit of all Robins he's tertiary.
Still shouldn't be race bent though. Just use Duke.

Vakanai, I really appreciate your honest answer.

We don't have to agree about race-bending.

And I like Tim too.

[Aahz]

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.

Race bending characters of this popularity seems to me more like they are either out ideas or really want to cause a controversy for all the media coverage and the "free marketing" (and the same goes for all female reboots).

[Dred]

I find the idea that a character being more popular means they can't be a different race to be pretty offensive. What is the point of changing a race for diversity if not to, you know, have more diversity in the MAIN characters? The ones everyone sees? The ones on the posters, in the ads, on the covers of the comics? The idea that all the main characters have to stay white while all the less-than-important characters can be whatever race is just straight up prejudiced. If you actually care about diversity why limit it to characters no one cares about? How is that diverse? Why wouldn't you diversify characters...people care about?

I don't know that's super freaking weird to me to draw as a line.

[scary harpy]

...

But coming back to Iris - its easier to make Iris black because no one, especially not casual audiences, are going to care much about that fact. But if they make, say, Lois Lane black...that opens a whole pandora's box. At the very least, a few op-eds, from left-wing and right-wing commentators. And a social media firestorm. At that point, the narrative around the move becomes less about casting a particular actress or just being more visually diverse with the film/TV show and more about politics.

And making Superman black...well, that would be a political shitstorm. Literally. I wouldn't be surprised if Senators and Congressmen come on air to talk about it.

My point is that its impossible to do it to really major characters/brands without it getting too political...and frankly, I don't think making it overtly political in the current climate does justice to anyone - the actors, the producers, the writers or the fans.

Well, with Superman, it's easy to create a shitstorm.

Remember when Wonder Woman lost all her powers and weapons, went to work in a fashion boutique and fought crime with only her martial arts while dressed all in white?

Let DC ever try that with Superman...and brace yourself everyone...

[scary harpy]

I find the idea that a character being more popular means they can't be a different race to be pretty offensive. What is the point of changing a race for diversity if not to, you know, have more diversity in the MAIN characters? The ones everyone sees? The ones on the posters, in the ads, on the covers of the comics? The idea that all the main characters have to stay white while all the less-than-important characters can be whatever race is just straight up prejudiced. If you actually care about diversity why limit it to characters no one cares about? How is that diverse? Why wouldn't you diversify characters...people care about?

I don't know that's super freaking weird to me to draw as a line.

I agree.

I recently learned that many people were upset when Etta Candy, Wonder Woman's friend, was racebent.

Etta Candy.

If some people are going to get that upset about Etta, then imagine their reaction to a main character...

[Aahz]

Remember when Wonder Woman lost all her powers and weapons, went to work in a fashion boutique and fought crime with only her martial arts while dressed all in white?

That happend 50 years ago.

[Vakanai]

I find the idea that a character being more popular means they can't be a different race to be pretty offensive. What is the point of changing a race for diversity if not to, you know, have more diversity in the MAIN characters? The ones everyone sees? The ones on the posters, in the ads, on the covers of the comics? The idea that all the main characters have to stay white while all the less-than-important characters can be whatever race is just straight up prejudiced. If you actually care about diversity why limit it to characters no one cares about? How is that diverse? Why wouldn't you diversify characters...people care about?

I don't know that's super freaking weird to me to draw as a line.

Simple - you actually push POC characters into main character big star status. The MCU didn't make Tony Stark black - they made Black Panther into a billion dollar movie. You add diversity to the line up by giving diverse characters a shot at big movies and shows and video games. Bronze Tiger can support a show as the lead, Vixen could support a movie, Black Lightning could be in a Justice League reboot, Steel could spin off of Superman, you can make these characters MAIN characters that everyone sees.

[scary harpy]

Remember when Wonder Woman lost all her powers and weapons, went to work in a fashion boutique and fought crime with only her martial arts while dressed all in white?

That happend 50 years ago.

Yes, it did.

Notice that DC never tried that with Superman.

[Vakanai]

I agree.

I recently learned that many people were upset when Etta Candy, Wonder Woman's friend, was racebent.

Etta Candy.

If some people are going to get that upset about Etta, then imagine their reaction to a main character...

Meanwhile there's a segment of the WW fanbase who will riot if Etta loses weight.

[bat39]

Very well stated, bat39.

Now, we must define primary, secondary and tertiary characters.

Specifically, is Tim Drake a primary or secondary character?

There isn't an objective answer to this unfortunately. It may well differ from person to person.

I got into comics when Tim was Robin, so to me he's a secondary character at least. Plus, he held the iconic mantle of Robin, which IMO means he should be considered to have at least a fraction of the star-power and brand image due to someone like Dick Grayson.

But realistically, Tim is today a tertiary character. Racebending Tim is unlikely to cause much of a stir, unlike race-bending Dick (on a related note, while it'd be okay to cast a white kid as Damien since that's mostly how he's portrayed in the comics, I think a mixed race or Asian actor might actually be a better fit). Honestly, in this case I think its better to wait and watch and judge the actor by his performance as well as how the character is written.

Race bending characters of this popularity seems to me more like they are either out ideas or really want to cause a controversy for all the media coverage and the "free marketing" (and the same goes for all female reboots).

For me, a good rule of thumb is to see how the casting announcement is handled officially.

When Zoe Kravitz was announced as Catwoman, I don't think WB made a single mention of her being mixed race, or about this being an attempt at diversity. I think at most the odd article covering the casting news may have made a mention of her race (usually in the context of mentioning Eartha Kitt and Halle Berry as her predecessors). I don't think Jurnee Smollet's race, when she was cast as Black Canary, was even discussed anywhere! (and IMO, she was one of the best parts of the movie and a pretty good adaptation of Dinah Laurel Lance).

Now, I have a hard time imagining a situation where WB announces, say, a black Superman without them giving some huge statement about their commitment to diversity or amplifying black voices or what have you. The fact that Ta Nehisi-Coates is attached to the project only triples the likelihood of political discource around the announcement. So inevitably, its going to turn into another front in the culture wars. And a great deal of the discourse is going to be toxic one way or the other. Regardless of my feelings about a race-bent Clark Kent (if they do choose to go in that direction), I really pity the actor who's going to be subjected to this shitstorm for no fault of his own...

But yes, as you say, the controversy of a black Superman will lead to a lot of free coverage and publicity.

[Aahz]

Yes, it did.

Notice that DC never tried that with Superman.

He got de powered ran around in T-Shirt and was than killed and replaced by an older version from another earth.

And he got also split into a Red and a Blue version.

Btw. the Teen Titans had also a phase were they ditched their costumes and vowed to never use their powers again.

I think for most of DCs long running franchises you will eras were the franchise got derailed really poor creative decisions.