Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[Vordan]

Catwoman in The Batman will be black, but that doesn’t mean all Catwoman appearances from now on will be black. Ditto for James Gordon who is also black in The Batman. Would some people be upset about a white Iris or Wally in a future Flash movie/cartoon/whatever? Sure. Are those people numerous enough to matter? Doubtful. Twitter is a microcosm in the grand scheme of things and the number of people who wouldn’t go see a movie because Iris wasn’t black is not all that high. MCU MJ is black and the MCU is massively popular but they didn’t make MJ in the Spidey games black or in the comics. Tim Drake will be black in the Titans show but I doubt that’s going to translate into him being black in future adaptions consistently. Especially if they do plan to push the multiverse it means that the audience is going to understand that things can differ radically within a “multiverse”.

Typically the characters who are permanently changed are the C-Listers. Take Hawkman: With the reincarnation angle I could easily see Carter being black across the board going forward if Black Adam is a success. He’s got a small fanbase but the mainstream audience doesn’t know him at all really. Hawkgirl has been Hispanic/Latino coded pretty heavily since the DCAU and the New 52/Rebirth made it official. While Bendis’ Legion run may have been a flop I expect the changes he made to those characters in terms of diversity will also stick since the Legion is too big in team size and too small in importance to be as lily white as it was.

But for someone who was as huge as Wally I don’t think it’s a given he will always be black going forward.

[Powerboy]

I'm very much okay with the inclusiveness. Gay Alan Scott, Iris West now seems will be black based on the JL movie going with the television show on that one. I'm more irritated by the movie Flash's mother being murdered like every version now has to be that one.

We hear some people talk about how they should make up new characters rather than change existing ones but that isn't realistic considering how few new characters spring up. There also seems to be an implication that some can no longer identify with a character if he suddenly is black or gay or whatever, which is kind of telling.

[Primal Slayer]

I figured you couldn’t have meant those stereotypes, I just couldn’t figure out what you did mean. What you said makes sense although many gay men have been so deep in the closet that they believe the lie themselves. That could do to their inner monologue what you suggested about talking aloud. Thanks for answering my question.

We just had a whole Bachelor guy who went on a dating show that's meant to end in marriage to a woman come out as a gay and how he tried to repress it to the point where...he became The bachelor lol. Perfect example of believing in the lie.

[Frontier]

Catwoman in The Batman will be black, but that doesn’t mean all Catwoman appearances from now on will be black. Ditto for James Gordon who is also black in The Batman. Would some people be upset about a white Iris or Wally in a future Flash movie/cartoon/whatever? Sure. Are those people numerous enough to matter? Doubtful. Twitter is a microcosm in the grand scheme of things and the number of people who wouldn’t go see a movie because Iris wasn’t black is not all that high. MCU MJ is black and the MCU is massively popular but they didn’t make MJ in the Spidey games black or in the comics. Tim Drake will be black in the Titans show but I doubt that’s going to translate into him being black in future adaptions consistently. Especially if they do plan to push the multiverse it means that the audience is going to understand that things can differ radically within a “multiverse”.

Typically the characters who are permanently changed are the C-Listers. Take Hawkman: With the reincarnation angle I could easily see Carter being black across the board going forward if Black Adam is a success. He’s got a small fanbase but the mainstream audience doesn’t know him at all really. Hawkgirl has been Hispanic/Latino coded pretty heavily since the DCAU and the New 52/Rebirth made it official. While Bendis’ Legion run may have been a flop I expect the changes he made to those characters in terms of diversity will also stick since the Legion is too big in team size and too small in importance to be as lily white as it was.

But for someone who was as huge as Wally I don’t think it’s a given he will always be black going forward.

I feel like with Gordon it depends on DC, because with Jim you get Batgirl who I think is too recognizable as a redhead and not someone you could pull a Ryan Wilder with unless you promote the other Batgirls.

Hawkman I think with the reincarnation angle you can play with making him whatever the creator wants, just whoever fits the role best. I know in the recent JSA movie they go for a more Middle-Eastern Hawkman.

[Agent Z]

No, he has a point. If you are introducing super-powered non-white and not-straight characters into a 1940's setting, you have to acknowledge the prejudice and discrimination they would have faced. To pretend that everyone got along back then would be a disservice not just the people who lived through that era but the people of the present day who would develop a warped view of the past.

I'm reminded of the content warning WB used to put on for their older cartoons: https://imgur.com/gallery/U8UZyVI

Having racial minorities and LGBT people among the JSA doesn't mean bigotry wouldn't exist. Even if the JSA were 100% okay with them (superheroes are supposed to be more moral than the average person anyway), it doesn't mean everyone else was as well.

[Agent Z]

All that is true.

and...what good does that do for Tim Drake?

Grayson is the icon; Jason is the punisher, Damian is the Son Of the Batman; Tim is....the black-haired, blue-eyed Third Robin.

DC has Zer0 idea what to do with him. There is abundant evidence that TPTB are clueless concerning this character.

If being biracial would help distinguish Tim from other Robins, then I would not object.

Insisting Tim remain Caucasian because of 30 years and over 200 solo issues may just condemn him to remain the Third Robin.

I am not against racebending depending on how it is done, but changing Tim's race is not automatically going to make him popular again.

[Rend20]

Ah, my bad. I'm used to so many people trying to make a counterpoint that I tend toward defensive.

Don't worry about it.

I understand these discussions can get a little hot which is why I usually try to steer clear of them. But on the rare occasions I do take part, I never want to pass off whatever view I may have as a fact and am always looking to have a genuine discussion rather than a heated argument.

[Agent Z]

DC quickly tossed Dick's heritage right out the window when it was time to cast a white guy.

The comics hardly acknowledge Dick's Romani heritage and it was presented in a rather racist and stereotypical way when Devin Grayson first introduced it in the 2000s.

As for Green Lantern, a gay Alan Scott will be featured in the HBO Max show.

[Aahz]

All that is true.

and...what good does that do for Tim Drake?

Grayson is the icon; Jason is the punisher, Damian is the Son Of the Batman; Tim is....the black-haired, blue-eyed Third Robin.

DC has Zer0 idea what to do with him. There is abundant evidence that TPTB are clueless concerning this character.

If being biracial would help distinguish Tim from other Robins, then I would not object.

Insisting Tim remain Caucasian because of 30 years and over 200 solo issues may just condemn him to remain the Third Robin.

And what would being biracial exactly do for the character?

I mean over the last 20 years we had 6 attempts to add black male character to the Bat franchise, the first 5 were not terrible successfull sofar, with number 6 it is a little to early to make the call.

The two big reason why Tim struggles as a character are imo that the new 52 reboot completely erased all of his history, which alienated a lot of his long-term fans, and that the books with him as lead that were put out since than were really bad.
Making him biracial would basically repeat the first mistake and and not really help with the second.

[John Venus]

Having racial minorities and LGBT people among the JSA doesn't mean bigotry wouldn't exist. Even if the JSA were 100% okay with them (superheroes are supposed to be more moral than the average person anyway), it doesn't mean everyone else was as well.

/r whoosh

You're not getting what I wrote at all. I wrote that if you are going to include non-white non-straight characters in that period, you have to acknowledge the prejudices and discrimination they would have faced. It doesn't have to be the whole point of the story but it should be a facet of it.

[John Venus]

I can give you the YJ Wally but I think the JLU Flash is generally just regarded as 'The Flash,' normally.

Do you have anything to back that up?

I think my point with the example is stronger than the point that you're trying to make by calling it out: when people think of Wally West now one of the clearest versions that people will think of is the Arrowverse Wally who is a black man. If Wally shows up in the Flash film, he will be black. To the public consciousness Wally West is, going forward, going to be thought of as a black man and there's no problem with that.

Despite the fact that yes, Wally's origin was changed in the Flash show, it doesn't mean that the character acts any differently from how Wally typically acts in the comics. He doesn't. The show interpretation is a faithful adaptation, which is the important thing. And in general the fact that it exists and is genuinely popular means that more people have seen that version of Wally than they have the classic ginger version even despite his appearances in Young Justice or Teen Titans or as "The Flash" in the Justice League animated series. That said, do I think that it'll lead to Wally being racebent in the comics? No. I don't. Especially not when a character with the name Wallace West who already has a similar appearance to the show's Wally exists - but the chances of them ever having more than one Wallace West on screen anywhere are incredibly slim, and if they have to pick a character to adapt it'll be the original 9 times out of 10. And they'll probably adapt him as a black man because they don't want to run the risk of whitewashing claims.

And that's fine. Because Wally doesn't need to be white even if he is ginger.

It's disingenuous to say that Wally acts the same after they race bent him or to dismiss the problematic nature of the change in his origin. This is something that I can see becoming an issue as race bending becomes more common place; how characters are depicted afterwards. After they made Wally West black, they turned him a criminal and then they gave his personality, charm, milestones, conflicts, humor and even his love interest to Barry Allen. Meanwhile, the white Wally West on JLU was a police scientist, had no criminal record, spent all day using his powers to help ordinary people not just from bad guys but with every day problems, seemingly on a first name basis with everyone in the city, 'beat' villains by just talking to them and he was considered the 'heart' of the team. Where is that kind of love for the black Wally West?
Now they've cast a black actor for Tim Drake and they've made him a 'streetwise kid who grew up on the toughest streets'. Yes, he was streetwise in the DCAU but that's because they combined him with Jason for that show but they already have Jason on the Titans show itself and Tim was always a nerdy kid who part timed as Robin in the comics.

[Alpha]

I know we are past the discussion about Starfire, but this actress, Maiara Walsh, is what I imagined Starfire would look like in live action

[Agent Z]

/r whoosh

You're not getting what I wrote at all. I wrote that if you are going to include non-white non-straight characters in that period, you have to acknowledge the prejudices and discrimination they would have faced. It doesn't have to be the whole point of the story but it should be a facet of it.

No I got that part. My argument entirely was that having non-white and LGBT heroes in the JSA wouldn't be "erasing history" as Jim said. I wasn't saying they wouldn't face prejudice or that you shouldn't write them facing prejudice.

[Veni]

The comics hardly acknowledge Dick's Romani heritage and it was presented in a rather racist and stereotypical way when Devin Grayson first introduced it in the 2000s.

As for Green Lantern, a gay Alan Scott will be featured in the HBO Max show.

Has Kyle Rayner being half Hispanic been acknowledged in the comics this past decade? Since Jessica Cruz was introduced, she has been the premier female and Latino Green Lantern (replacing Kyle) and has become quite popular.

[Agent Z]

Has Kyle Rayner being half Hispanic been acknowledged in the comics this past decade?

I recall it being somewhat prominent in Tom King's Omega Men.