Chanigng characters race or sexuality for DC characters

[Veni]

Barbara - Not happening. I’m sure Taylor would if he could, he loves pandering to Twitter, but Barbara is so widespread in usage that one movie isn’t going to change that. She’ll be white in GK, in Titans, in YJ, in DCSG, etc and that will remain true going forward.
Hawkman - Very possible especially if the BA movie is a huge hit. They can always introduce a new Carter incarnation given what Venditti set up.
Cyclone - Totally dependent on who if anyone gets JSA. But she’s in a similar area as Hawkman.

Geoff Johns and Mark Waid created Cyclone. I don't think Cyclone will be race swapped because there will be an incoming series with the JSA ( If Johns finds the time to write it that is) and we already saw her in Doomsday Clock and the Stargirl special.

[ultradav]

Changing race, sexuality or other characteristics IMO only benefits people and doesn't hurt anyone, so I am completely fine with it. It also opens up new story possibilities that are not available when characters all look or act the same way.

Unless the character's identity trait is related to some fundamental aspect of their character - and that applies to very few. Being straight is not essential to Alan Scott, for instance, nor is being white essential to being Hawkman. These characters were mostly created at a time when the default was white, straight, male -- so it is completely logical to tweak them somewhat for the 21st century. We all know that new characters do not do as well (and are easily discarded once the story is over or their pet writer drops them) -- there are very very few post Crisis characters who are successful. So that leaves existing properties -- and I fully am in favor of changing them up.

Note most of these 80+ year old characters have had multiple retcons that are way more substantial than their race or sexuality. To use the Alan example again -- he is totally different than he was in 1940 in many ways. He used to mostly punch people and walk through walls. He later had a retconned connection to the Guardians and GLC because of Hal Jordan -- who came AFTER Alan. That was a way more substantive retcon than who he sleeps with. I've found though many fans are fine with retcons if they happened before their time or during their childhood.

[Johnrevenge]

Barbara - Not happening. I’m sure Taylor would if he could, he loves pandering to Twitter, but Barbara is so widespread in usage that one movie isn’t going to change that. She’ll be white in GK, in Titans, in YJ, in DCSG, etc and that will remain true going forward.
Hawkman - Very possible especially if the BA movie is a huge hit. They can always introduce a new Carter incarnation given what Venditti set up.
Cyclone - Totally dependent on who if anyone gets JSA. But she’s in a similar area as Hawkman.

As I mentioned before, DC isn't like Marvel which abuses of movie synergy too much. I really doubt any of these characters will be race swapped in the comics.

[marhawkman]

If DC suddenly reimagines her everywhere as Dominican, similar to how they're seemingly doing that with Catwoman often being black in outside media, it could work.

Halle Berry as Catwoman worked because it wasn't Selina Kyle. It was Patience Phillips.... there's liek 12 different Catwomen.

[Primal Slayer]

If DC suddenly reimagines her everywhere as Dominican, similar to how they're seemingly doing that with Catwoman often being black in outside media, i

What all media are you viewing? Catwoman/Selena Kyle is only black in Harley Quinn and The Batman. She's white in Batman Long Halloween, Injustice, in her upcoming dtv

Which is why making Tim bisexual was such a bad idea. That, and the fact there was zero precedent for it.

It pretty much taints decades' worth of comics to retcon that the reason these two were such bros, is because they were actually attracted to each other. Apparently, some people can't see two men being best friends without thinking they are gay for each other.

And let us be frank: If they made Tim bi, then making Kon bi is but a step away. Its the #CurrentYear after all, and pandering to Twitter is all the rage.

There usually is no precedent to someone coming out as gay/bi until there is one set. Such as it goes in real life. There's nothing in Tims history saying that he isnt bi.

[Johnny]

What all media are you viewing? Catwoman/Selena Kyle is only black in Harley Quinn and The Batman. She's white in Batman Long Halloween, Injustice, in her upcoming dtv

The Lego Batman Movie and DC Super Hero Girls come to mind too. I think she's a notable example of a character who doesn't always stick to her default look. And after The Batman I expect to see that a lot more frequently outside of comics.

[Fergus]

I don't mind either. The only issue i have is when the change ends up marginalising minority characters or shut the out entirely.

example Titans Tv show race bending Tim Drake effectively shut out Duke Thomas. A black bat sidekick.

Why race bend a white Robin for a TV show when you could give the role to the actual black sidekick?

That's messed up. Inclusion and diversity [in comic] is more than just black face. It should also be about spotlighting minority characters who might struggle because comics have been white for so long that readers get used to picking up comics with POc.

Titans is a show that reaches more people than comics. This was a chance to introduce a minority character like Duke to a huge audience. The Black Robin. But they decided to go with the other white Robin but make him black.

They don't give a toss about promoting characters of colour.

This particular race bend was unwise.

[Johnny]

Didn't they show Duke Thomas on Titans recently. I haven't seen the new season but I saw people posting on twitter images of Duke, Daxton Chill, Stephanie Brown and Carrie Kelley on some computer screen. I don't know the context, but maybe they're planned to be future Robins or future Titan members in general.

[John Venus]

Catwoman has been alternatively played by black, white and mixed race actresses since Eartha Kitt first purred in the '66 Batman show. It is not the end of the world if a character is played someone from a different ethnicity. There has been Shakespeare productions and Sherlock Holmes adaptations where they swap out the race of the characters and oh look the earth is still here. What is important is what the actor brings to the role and how the writers handle the character. Eartha Kitt was still recognizably Catwoman in her role. Even though the movie itself was horrible, Halle Barry wasn't a bad choice for the role either. If she had a better script, she could have truly shined in the role. Where it goes badly is what they did Wally West where you basically a new character sharing the name Wally West and DC acted like you should just forget the old one.

[Johnny]

Catwoman has been alternatively played by black, white and mixed race actresses since Eartha Kitt first purred in the '66 Batman show. It is not the end of the world if a character is played someone from a different ethnicity.

And I don't recall saying it was, I pointed out Catwoman as a character who is not always portrayed in the same fashion. I remember being surprised when I saw she was blonde in Batman TAS when to my knowledge that's not how the character ever was before the Michelle Pfeiffer version it was clearly inspired by. Similarly I expect future versions of Catwoman to be inspired by Zoe Kravitz as well, especially if it's critically acclaimed.

There has been Shakespeare productions and Sherlock Holmes adaptations where they swap out the race of the characters and oh look the earth is still here. What is important is what the actor brings to the role and how the writers handle the character

You know, remarks like this can make it a bit difficult to take comments like that at face value because it seems like you're purposely mocking people who were not even complaining about race lifting. I don't personally care if, say, Anne Boleyn, an actual historical figure not a fictional character, is for some reason turned black in a current TV show but I can recognize there are people who do and they would be justified if they want a portrayal of a 16th century British monarch to be faithfully translated to screen from both writing and visual perspective, regardless if the actress of color knocks it out of the park in the role or not. Of course the earth will still be here regardless of what people have to say about it, doesn't mean it can't be a valid argument that should be quickly dismissed like it's something silly that isn't worth discussing.

[John Venus]

My post was not pointed at you directly but the main topic itself.

[Johnny]

Fair enough but the point stands. Some people care about the iconography of the characters and there are some valid arguments to be made that raceswapping could offer a temporary solution but may not actually help fixing the problem about lack of better representation itself.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't mind either. The only issue i have is when the change ends up marginalising minority characters or shut the out entirely.

example Titans Tv show race bending Tim Drake effectively shut out Duke Thomas. A black bat sidekick.

Why race bend a white Robin for a TV show when you could give the role to the actual black sidekick?

That's messed up. Inclusion and diversity [in comic] is more than just black face. It should also be about spotlighting minority characters who might struggle because comics have been white for so long that readers get used to picking up comics with POc.

Titans is a show that reaches more people than comics. This was a chance to introduce a minority character like Duke to a huge audience. The Black Robin. But they decided to go with the other white Robin but make him black.

They don't give a toss about promoting characters of colour.

This particular race bend was unwise.

Duke was never going to show up on Titans lets be real. Thus far they are following the Robin lineage and Duke is ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way down there. Practically last in line. Tim Drake is 100% more well known and likely to get adapted.

[marhawkman]

That's messed up. Inclusion and diversity [in comic] is more than just black face. It should also be about spotlighting minority characters who might struggle because comics have been white for so long that readers get used to picking up comics with POc.

Sort of true, it's just that looking at things historically, it seems to me that it's only the top tier big name heroes that actually fit being billed as "white guys". It's a big part of why I like big team books. You have the top tier characters... and a few dozen others who don't get as much time in the spotlight.

I remember a thread on the Xmen board a while back where someone was trying to make a list of "black" Xmen characters... Xmen has a LOT of ethnic diversity in the cast... a LOT. Thing is... most of it gets ignored by casual readers and anyone who's not obviously dark skinned gets thrown into the "white" bin for having light skin.

Like Magneto... Magneto is Jewish. Jews are of Middle Eastern origin. They don't have particularly dark skin though. Just look at Gal Gadot if you want an easy example. She used to be a member of the Israeli military and was born in Israel. But some people label her as "white" anyways.

Fair enough but the point stands. Some people care about the iconography of the characters and there are some valid arguments to be made that raceswapping could offer a temporary solution but may not actually help fixing the problem about lack of better representation itself.

Yeah, I mean, for marketing, simply changing the color of the gloves a character wears has an influence on marketability. Which is why it's weird that they'd adapt a character... just to completely change them. It's not recognizable from a marketing perspective. Which is like... why not use a different character? Racebending is a half-measure that doesn't work for either goal. It doesn't create an interesting character, and it doesn't improve marketability. Unless the entire marketing strategy is centered on skin tones...

[Slaughter]

Saying that two male friends falling is love ruins male friendships is a pretty awful take.
DC has loads of male friendships. Superman and Batman have off and on had a team up series for over sixty years built on their friendship.
How many prominent male couples are there at DC? Midnighter and Apollo were created as a couple. Male friendship is a relationship that is well portrayed in comics. If Tim and Conner do become a couple there will be many many straight male friendships still out there.

The issue is that there's a quite significant number of people - mostly women I suspect - who can't see deep male friendships without thinking "They gay". Apparently, to some people, men can't enjoy deep personal connections without actually being in homosexual relationship. Clark/Bruce, Hal and Barry, Hal and Oliver, Ted/Michael... almost every single one of them has gotten the "lol they gay" treatment by someone at some point, and honestly that's detestable because it trivializes male friendship.

Also, it retro-taints all those friendship moments into closeted men having the hots for each other. In short: It suddenly puts sexual context into wholesome scenes with zero sexual context. Which is bad.

These characters were mostly created at a time when the default was white, straight, male

You do know there's logical reason these (mostly american) characters are by default white straight males, right?
- The US is a mostly white nation. Most Americans are white (especially back then, before the mass migration of people from Latin America). I'm not even getting into the racism thing.
- Super-heroing is rough, violent work, and assuming an equal distribution of superpowers per sex, it would mostly attract men for the same reason police/military/martial arts work mostly attracts men.
- Most people are straight (bi + gays are what, 10% max of human population?).

So yeah... the average american super-hero would be a white straight male.

I sure hope so!

And why would you want that? Superboy has been defined since the 1990s as being a teen horndog womanizer. Its a big part of the character, he's pretty much super-powered Peter Pan on hormones. If he liked dudes, he would't stay in the closet for a single second - another big part of his character is that he's pretty much an open book, super sincere and is downright unapologetic about whatever he likes and wants to do.

Nah, Kon-El chases skirts, not pants.