Who is a worst father, David Cain or Omni-Man?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Like, I know the above sarcasm is not helpful to cogent discourse but I am really having a hard time with you watching an episode of a show that centres on a character battling with his conflicting ideologies and having an internal struggle between his perceived duty and his love for his family and have come away with the take; "Nolan seems to have conflicting ideas about what he wants and acted irrationally in response, this is bad writing for some reason,"

I mean be careful, my guy. He's gonna say you're insulting him!

[Postmania]

I think it's fair to say that singularly unique experiences even in a short time span can cause larger changes than a notably longer period of rather similar experiences if the singular experiences are shocking enough.

The conceit in the show seems to be that despite living longer Viltrumites aren't that different in that respect, just with longer time periods on a grand scale.

it may be unsatisfying for some with YMMV but that's what it's doing here

[PCN24454]

Man, it's almost like Nolan is written to be a character riddled with internal conflict, caught between two worlds that both demand intense responsibility from him in both positive and negative ways and that causes his behaviour to be counter-intuitive.

Almost like centuries of social hyperviolent fascist indoctrination has been challenged by the first true experiences of personal freedom and genuine love that he has ever felt in his life, nurtured slowly over the course of literal decades. It's almost like those two conflicting sets of feelings are causing him to act somewhat irrationally.

Man, imagine if this conflict was entirely intentional and, in fact, the main theme of the character at this stage in his arc. O_O

Imagine if that were the case!

But alas, you are quite correct, it must be sloppy writing. Too bad really, because all of the above might have been quite compelling if had been intentional.

As someone who has read the comics, the big difference between the cartoon and the comics is that the cartoon did a better job of foreshadowing that Nolan was evil as we see his more rough personality with his wife and when training his son.

Their argument is that it's hard to believe that he could be so perfect without anyone, especially his wife and son, noticing, and I see what they're saying.

[Postmania]

With Nolan being perfect I imagine its the same as what happens in real life.

Any odd behavior is downplayed bc Ominmans a hero/a great husband/my dad and look at him he saves people every day as his job.

The dude ignored a giant monster to enjoy his vacation and Debbie didn't seem actually that surprised by it so I'm assuming sometimes things like this happen and people write things off.

[The Dog]

With Nolan being perfect I imagine its the same as what happens in real life.

Any odd behavior is downplayed bc Ominmans a hero/a great husband/my dad and look at him he saves people every day as his job.

The dude ignored a giant monster to enjoy his vacation and Debbie didn't seem actually that surprised by it so I'm assuming sometimes things like this happen and people write things off.

Or people who know he's an alien just see that as Omni-Man coming from an alien culture, and he's just getting used to the way things are done on Earth.

spoilers:

Though, in the comics at least, Cecil Stedman and the Global Defense Agency knew that everything that Omni-Man told them was complete bullshit real quick. He just decided that as long as Earth was reasonably safe, he didn't care about why Omni-Man had really showed up on Earth or his reason for lying to them.

end of spoilers

[Hiromi]

Yeah I think you can probably file a lot of weird behavior under the "the guy is a literal alien" file, not like he hides that part. Also he probably never committed an out and out evil act before murdering the Guardians

Or people who know he's an alien just see that as Omni-Man coming from an alien culture, and he's just getting used to the way things are done on Earth.

spoilers:

Though, in the comics at least, Cecil Stedman and the Global Defense Agency knew that everything that Omni-Man told them was complete bullshit real quick. He just decided that as long as Earth was reasonably safe, he didn't care about why Omni-Man had really showed up on Earth or his reason for lying to them.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

wouldn't be surprised if that's the same here, Cecil being paranoid as hell is perfectly in character for him, and certain things like the satellite laser were probably in place LOOONG before the Guardians got murdered

end of spoilers

[Captain Morgan]

I will say that the show's rendition does play better if you're aware of the full scope of Nolan's internal conflict already, which means it is effectively a better seen for people who already read the comic. Part of this is show Nolan does more aggressively evil stuff. They show you a lot more of him coming apart at the seams before his fight with Mark. And I think there's a subtle distinction between book Nolan killing a bunch of people as collateral damage and then trying to use their deaths to prove a point compared to show Nolan going out of his way to murder people to make a point. (Though the emotional devastation of civilian casualties is also a bigger theme through out the whole season.)

But they also do more to show you that Nolan didn't actually want Mark to develop powers and how freaked out this made him. The significance of that point may be lost on those who haven't read the comic. Which I guess begs the question of who is the target audience. Is it trying to cash in on the existing fanbase or draw new fans in? A well executed story should be able to do both at once, but this show also isn't perfectly executed.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I will say that the show's rendition does play better if you're aware of the full scope of Nolan's internal conflict already, which means it is effectively a better seen for people who already read the comic. Part of this is show Nolan does more aggressively evil stuff. They show you a lot more of him coming apart at the seams before his fight with Mark. And I think there's a subtle distinction between book Nolan killing a bunch of people as collateral damage and then trying to use their deaths to prove a point compared to show Nolan going out of his way to murder people to make a point. (Though the emotional devastation of civilian casualties is also a bigger theme through out the whole season.)

But they also do more to show you that Nolan didn't actually want Mark to develop powers and how freaked out this made him. The significance of that point may be lost on those who haven't read the comic. Which I guess begs the question of who is the target audience. Is it trying to cash in on the existing fanbase or draw new fans in? A well executed story should be able to do both at once, but this show also isn't perfectly executed.

Considering it'll draw in the people who think Falcon and the Winter Soldier or The Boys are good shows; I don't think it really matters for the 'new' fans.

[Postmania]

The Boys is decent

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

The Boys is decent

It's fun, well written it's... really not. FatWS isn't as fun, and just craps all over Bucky, and Falcon.

As for the thread proper. Figure for my money Cain is worse than Nolan, Nolan just has a much more spectacular 'reveal' as it were.

[Jcogginsa]

I fail to see how FATWS craps on Bucky or Falcon

[Nik Hasta]

I'll just say that while extratextual knowledge of the comics makes you more appreciative of the subtler cues, I think the Invincible TV show does enough work to illustrate Nolan's internal conflict by itself.

My issue with Shellhead's reaction is that it required him to miss or ignore all the times when the show explicitly showed said conflict.

The Boys is decent

I'd go further, The Boys (the show) is pretty good and is leagues better than the comic.

[big_adventure]

I will second the Boys being a pretty good show, and also that it's a lot better than the comics.

I think that the Invincible show is off to an excellent start, fully allowing for the 2021 approved changes to background details.

And I enjoyed FatWS as well. I liked the overarching justifiable conflict they created (the GRC, how do you deal with 3.5 billion people suddenly coming back, etc.), the racial undertone is pretty solid and not too overdone, the buddy comedy action between Stan and Mackie isn't bad. A lot of the writing of Karli and her band of idiots was absolute tripe, and what they did with the (avoiding spoilers) Power Broker... ugh. You also see how Marvel is setting up a lot of their tentpole movies with their serial work here, and the stuff is pretty good for that. WandaVision and FatWS are infinitely better than any of the CW's DC stuff, in every respect.

Back on topic-ish...

Cain was already worse than Nolan before the retcons: he had some care for Cass, and some... I don't know, moments where emotion other then evil incarnate showed up, but was generally horrible to her nearly every day of her childhood. Post-Nu, Cain only has "douche" on his resume.

Nolan, as pointed out ad nauseum here, was a pretty good father until the break that made him not one, and that for a very short period of time before he left in the show. As has been touched on, there is much more to come with Nolan. There is also things already seen and many more to come specifically addressing that Virtulmites have explicitly horrible, violent tempers. We've seen it with Mark and with Nolan already in the show, and those aren't the only episodes we'll see of that.

[Beadle]

And I enjoyed FatWS as well. I liked the overarching justifiable conflict they created (the GRC, how do you deal with 3.5 billion people suddenly coming back, etc.), the racial undertone is pretty solid and not too overdone, the buddy comedy action between Stan and Mackie isn't bad. A lot of the writing of Karli and her band of idiots was absolute tripe, and what they did with the (avoiding spoilers) Power Broker... ugh. You also see how Marvel is setting up a lot of their tentpole movies with their serial work here, and the stuff is pretty good for that. WandaVision and FatWS are infinitely better than any of the CW's DC stuff, in every respect.

Speaking as someone who still puts themselves through CW DC shows, that’s a bit like saying “Drink this - I’m not saying it’s nice, but it’s better than a bucket of sick.”

[greatmetropolitan]

Comparing the high-budget movie studio productions of Falcon and Winter Soldier, Wandavision, to the CW shows seems like comparing apples and oranges, honestly. They're very much not designed to aim to the same market or fulfil the same purposes. Falcon and a budget of 25 million per episode, the Flash about 2 million. I think Superman and Lois is a real step up for the CW, writing wise and CGI.

Marvel have a slick machine, to be sure. They've perfected the art of churning out passable-to-good products in their house style on quick turnarounds. That's why stuff like The Boys generally shows as better, they're free to have personality and be about something other than the next movie or whatever.

Anyway, Nolan is a decent dad until he isn't, is the thing. He contains multitudes. Which makes him super interesting to watch.