Who is a worst father, David Cain or Omni-Man?

[BitVyper]

I mean, Goku was pretty much completely railroaded by author fiat into dying and staying dead during the Cell Saga. He took precious seconds to hang around and chat instead of just teleporting in and out before Cell blew up, and his decision to stay dead so as to avoid having his enemies come back to make more trouble, in addition to being wildly out of character for the guy that let Piccolo Jr./Vegeta/Frieza live more or less explicitly so that they could me challenge him again once they got stronger, also made no sense to going how his enemies would have just continued rampaging if he wasn't around, as evidence by everything in Teen Trunks' past, present, and future. Heck, the Android/Cell Saga even started with Frieza ordering a massacre while they waited for Goku to come back to Earth.

I mean you can certainly make the argument that none of it is really his fault, and his life is a net positive in a lot of ways. But that doesn't mean it's out of character for him to make that choice. For one thing, we can't even really be sure how on board Goku would be with his own resurrection outside a situation where the planet was actively in danger like with the Saiyans. He's known since he was a child that death isn't all that bad, and he's just not the kind of person with that sort of material desire to need to live forever. He died by choice, and I think he'd be perfectly willing to "live" with that disregarding all other factors. But then also everything before the Androids and Cell was pretty self contained, then there's all the revenge plot stuff, but also Cell in particular shows up and he's like this really dark reflection of everything that they are, very much a bad end for their pursuit of martial perfection. Cynical to the point of nihilism where he was going to destroy the planet just to express all that power that came from them. Vegeta is awful, but Goku saw value in him and something that could be saved. He plays it so cool leading up to the Cell games and while fighting Cell, and we know that's for Gohan, but I feel like he looked at Cell (and remember, he's taken his ki senses to the point of telepathy where only a couple old masters ever pulled that trick off), and just saw a big all-consuming void. He's not a despot like Frieza; he really wants, in his self perfection, things that are like what Goku aims for but cracked. I don't think it's unintentional that he takes a mainstay event of the old series and turns it into his personal vanity project to show off before he blows up the planet. And we certainly can assume that Goku would be able to sense it every time Cell wiped out another city with powers he got from Goku. And if you really want to trace it back, Goku only ever really fought the Red Ribbon Army out of sentiment for the four star, so it's not like he's sitting on a ton of moral justification for the events that lead into this. Much as his actions are justifiable and have a positive effect, an adult looking back could easily just view it as violence begetting violence for no real purpose.

So that hits pretty hard. And then he realises Gohan doesn't like fighting and oops he fucked up (which I discussed in the good dad/bad dad context earlier), and watches his son pay a traumatic emotional price for that while this smirking monster made out of all his powers gets ready to kill everyone, and I dunno. I feel like that might have made him "ready" to move on and make way.

Thread about something completely different devolves into a Dragonball argument; having flashbacks to the old board. ^_^

I think Toriyama is a much better writer than he gets credit for. He's an amazing artist, and especially really good at composing scenes, but he's also kind of a born serial author who is really really good at throwing a ton of details out there with no planning (pretty much all statements we have suggest that he plans like one chapter ahead at most), and bringing them all together in pretty consistently themed stories. But he writes comedy and silly power escalation fight comics, so no one really cares.

A cartoonist I like, last summer read through the entire comic series from Dragon Ball to the end of Z, and tweeted a lot about it. He had some interesting things to say, so I collected all the tweets in a moment. It's a good read that you can see here: https://twitter.com/i/events/1297794720442195970?s=20 (note that I only filed the first tweet in each thread when there were threads, so you have to click through them a bit if you want to see EVERYTHING)

[Sharpandpointies]

Cain's got this over Nolan though even he cared for Cass in his own twisted way...which is more than I can say about some of the other folks mentioned here (no Ozai?).

Just touch on this, for fun and discussion. I've given a lot of thought to Cain and Cass' relationship over the years.

Cain's first attempt to do this with other children was nothing more than an experiment. There wasn't a relationship. He wasn't their adopted parent. They were test creatures to him, nothing more. It was an appalling exercise in child abuse.

With Cass, Cain ended up with his biological daughter...and she excelled. At some point along the way, Cain began to have actual feelings of care for her - that's evident in her original series, in flashbacks. But in no way did it STOP him from continuing his abusive training. For him, the training was a positive thing. He cared for Cass in his own, selfish manner, but still continued with the abuse because he never felt it was WRONG. He felt he was making something amazing (again, this was about himself, not what Cass wanted), he felt the end goal was wonderful, he didn't feel what he did to Cass was 'abuse' as much as 'preparation for her role'.

Which is also an appalling exercise in child abuse.

Later in life, Cass leaves Cain and Cain...starts to fall apart. Not only has he failed in his grand experiment (which must have been crushing), but he realizes how much he actually cares for Cass and wants her around. But he continues working as a killer, etc - I suspect he 'puts it out of his mind, focuses on the job'. Or something. Then ten years later he meets Cass again in No Man's Land, and breaks down into tears when she speaks to him for the first time. After this, he realizes she wants nothing to do with him and that she views him as a villain. It devastates him. He stops working, starts drinking, and sits around watching old movies of Cass while pondering where he went wrong.

And comes to the conclusion that his big mistake was getting Cass to kill someone when she was eight. Not 'Maybe I shouldn't have done all of that ****.' Nope. 'I got her to kill too early.' Ugh. Still operating from that selfish perspective.

Later, he travels to Gotham and we see another small shift in his perspective. He refuses to kill in Gotham because Cass is there, and she wouldn't like it. He gets caught by Cass (stealing all of the old movie footage of her that was confiscated from him) and abjectly apologizes (seriously, he practically grovels in front of her, knowing full well he's in the wrong). He breaks down. 'Please don't take them from me, they're all I have left.' Basically, he's aware that he has lost her and it's killing him.

He ends the confrontation by apologizing again...after he has gotten his tapes. The implication is that he's apologizing not for just coming to Gotham...but for what he did.

Then we get to Bruce Wayne: Fugitive, which ends with Cain in prison, waiting to die (he's starving himself, and also knows there will be assassins on the way to kill him). At some point along the line he has come to some kind of realization that what he did was wrong. I don't know if he realizes that in GENERAL it was wrong, or if he has figured out that it was wrong 'for my relationship with my daughter' (which, again, would be all about him), or whatever, but he HAS come to the realization he did wrong, he will never have a relationship with Cass...and wants to die.

At this point, his desire to have a relationship with his daughter has overtaken his need to be the World's Best Assassin, or to create Even Better Assassin Than Me™, or whatever. And with the understanding that he can never have that, he doesn't care and wants to die. To 'punish' himself, in a way. This is explicitly noted in the comics. It's Batman that convinces him to stay alive, because if he's alive there's always a chance.

So what does Cain do after that?

He waits. That's all. He goes to Blackgate prison - voluntarily, because let's face it, he can get out any time he wants (and does, to deliver a birthday present to Cass, then returns to his cell) - and waits. He's in there for life, and doesn't care. No more desire to be out there being an assassin. No more desire to be training the perfect heir. No more of anything but patiently waiting, occasionally receiving a visit from Cass for one reason or another (usually ending with him beaten up again). He's waiting for another chance, another visit, and the hope of maybe someday being able to talk with his daughter again (and even when she beats him all to hell, her visits are clearly a source of happiness for him).

Maybe by that point he has come to a full realization of what he did, and how important Cass - herself, as a person, not a vessel for his plans - is to him. Or maybe not, maybe it's just his selfishness manifesting in another fashion.

Either way, it's interesting (and horrifying at times) to observe. Cain is a surprisingly complex character - I wouldn't call him a 'good' person, nor would I want to have ANYTHING to do with him personally, but he makes for a 'good' character. A screwed up, evil character, but sometimes those characters can be complex and interesting in their own horrible fashion.

Also, he does amusing pratfalls.

Cain pratfall1.jpg

Cain pratfall2.jpg

Then they revamped him into a one-dimensional character in NuDC, bleah.

[Shellhead]

I have only seen the first season of Invincible on Amazon and haven't read any of the comics. Based on what I watched, Omni-Man is a good father until suddenly he retroactively is revealed to be an inhuman monster who was only pretending for 18 years. It doesn't really work as a story, just a twist on the standard What If Superman was Bad trope. Nolan should have been at least subtly introducing elements of his survival of the fittest doctrine over the years, not just blindly hoping that Mark would suddenly abandon his entire upbringing and embrace a radical new worldview as soon as he got powers. He might even have made a solid case for his view if he had talked more about human atrocities instead of performing his own. Apparently there will be a redemption arc for Nolan, and that will require equally bad writing. Some guy who has been raised with a specific set of beliefs and continued to hold them while living for millennia is not going to suddenly change his mind. Especially when he has already shown a willingness to slaughter thousands of innocent people to make his point, as well as literally smash his beloved son's teeth out along the way. And after comparing his wife to a pet dog, there is no coming back. Human women will hold a life-long grudge for lesser offenses than that.

[Nik Hasta]

I have only seen the first season of Invincible on Amazon and haven't read any of the comics. Based on what I watched, Omni-Man is a good father until suddenly he retroactively is revealed to be an inhuman monster who was only pretending for 18 years. It doesn't really work as a story, just a twist on the standard What If Superman was Bad trope. Nolan should have been at least subtly introducing elements of his survival of the fittest doctrine over the years, not just blindly hoping that Mark would suddenly abandon his entire upbringing and embrace a radical new worldview as soon as he got powers. He might even have made a solid case for his view if he had talked more about human atrocities instead of performing his own. Apparently there will be a redemption arc for Nolan, and that will require equally bad writing. Some guy who has been raised with a specific set of beliefs and continued to hold them while living for millennia is not going to suddenly change his mind. Especially when he has already shown a willingness to slaughter thousands of innocent people to make his point, as well as literally smash his beloved son's teeth out along the way. And after comparing his wife to a pet dog, there is no coming back. Human women will hold a life-long grudge for lesser offenses than that.

Umm, did you watch the finale? I feel like you kind of aggressively missed the point of it.

Nolan spent all his previous life, specifically centuries, living in a quasi-fascist, ultraviolent, eugenics-dominated super society wherein his only interaction with other cultures was to immediately roll over them, subjugate them and replace their culture and values with his own.

He may be centuries old but he was comparatively sheltered because he was part of a highly successful expansionist interstellar empire. He had no frame of reference for any other cultural norms other than ultraviolent space fascism.

His time on earth, some 20 odd years no less, is the first time he had ever been immersed in another culture and actually been afforded the time to listen and learn from it. The point of the finale is, despite his apparent devotion to Viltrumite values, he has been changed by it. More than he himself realised.

It wasn't sudden, it took literally more than Mark's entire life for him to foster those hesitations and he still almost went through with it because his native ideology runs very deep in him.

But he does love his son. It changed him. There was literally a whole flashback illustrating this change beginning to happen.

Like, it's not subtle at all. I really don't get how you can miss the point that hard.

[Shellhead]

Umm, did you watch the finale? I feel like you kind of aggressively missed the point of it.

Nolan spent all his previous life, specifically centuries, living in a quasi-fascist, ultraviolent, eugenics-dominated super society wherein his only interaction with other cultures was to immediately roll over them, subjugate them and replace their culture and values with his own.

He may be centuries old but he was comparatively sheltered because he was part of a highly successful expansionist interstellar empire. He had no frame of reference for any other cultural norms other than ultraviolent space fascism.

His time on earth, some 20 odd years no less, is the first time he had ever been immersed in another culture and actually been afforded the time to listen and learn from it. The point of the finale is, despite his apparent devotion to Viltrumite values, he has been changed by it. More than he himself realised.

It wasn't sudden, it took literally more than Mark's entire life for him to foster those hesitations and he still almost went through with it because his native ideology runs very deep in him.

But he does love his son. It changed him. There was literally a whole flashback illustrating this change beginning to happen.

Like, it's not subtle at all. I really don't get how you can miss the point that hard.

Yes, I watched the final episode, with increasing disbelief. Did the episode explicitly say that Earth was Nolan's first infiltration? Because it seems unlikely that he has been a Viltrumite for so long without taking on this kind of mission. His narration claims that half the Viltrumites died when they were resolving their internal conflict, but the number of apparent survivors compared to the huge pile of corpses made it seem more like 99% had been eradicated. The flashback doesn't work because Nolan had already used his son's body to slaughter a few hundred subway riders in such a way that his son got to watch it all and the victims saw it coming. And then he smashes his beloved son's teeth out. That. Doesn't. Work. as a character moment, and the flashback thus rings completely false. The underlying problem is that Robert Kirkman didn't write Omni-Man as a character, just as a variation of a tired trope. It fails because it isn't subtle, it's clumsy like it was written by a grimdark teenager who fantasizes about shooting up his school.

[Nik Hasta]

I'll aim to keep this comic-specific spoiler free.

Yes, I watched the final episode, with increasing disbelief. Did the episode explicitly say that Earth was Nolan's first infiltration? Because it seems unlikely that he has been a Viltrumite for so long without taking on this kind of mission.

Nolan specifically said that the infiltration model was a new innovation as the number of Viltrumites was far exceeded by the dimensions of their territory. Rather than having to commit to multiple fronts, they send agents to infiltrate, weaken and then indoctrinate the desired planet. This was one of the first of such missions and specifically his first time living outside of Viltrumite society.

His narration claims that half the Viltrumites died when they were resolving their internal conflict, but the number of apparent survivors compared to the huge pile of corpses made it seem more like 99% had been eradicated.

I can't get into the specifics of this without branching into comic spoilers but the number of Viltrumites around is an important factor.

The flashback doesn't work because Nolan had already used his son's body to slaughter a few hundred subway riders in such a way that his son got to watch it all and the victims saw it coming. And then he smashes his beloved son's teeth out. That. Doesn't. Work. as a character moment, and the flashback thus rings completely false.

I'm not going to litigate whether it works for you or not, that's down to the viewer of the piece. My objection is that you are painting this as "Oh Nolan suddenly changed his ways," despite the show going out of its way to /show/ you why and that it was a gradual change over a period of decades.

I also don't know what you mean by "doesn't work," about the flashback. It is meant to show that Nolan did not understand familial connections or relationships properly and that he thought earth ways were pathetic. But then he is caught up in the moment and his attitude shifts. That's what it shows, that's what it is for. It is a microcosm for his emotional arc over the decades prior the story beginning. How does it not work at illustrating that?

The underlying problem is that Robert Kirkman didn't write Omni-Man as a character, just as a variation of a tired trope. It fails because it isn't subtle, it's clumsy like it was written by a grimdark teenager who fantasizes about shooting up his school.

I would also add that this is immense projection on your part.

[big_adventure]

Avoiding spoilers for what's likely to come, yes, this is probably the first world Nolan has been sent to in this fashion. For reasons to come, Vitrulmites changed their methods of expansion relatively recently.

[Shellhead]

It does help knowing that this is Nolan's first mission of this type, though it still strains credibility that two decades of Earth life will undo thousands of years of experiences. But it still doesn't work as a story, because Kirkman prioritized a shock reveal over a more credible scenario where Nolan introduces at least some of his beliefs during his son's childhood. As opposed to completely raising his son according to the tenets of a completely incompatible system of morality, and then expecting to abruptly change him right after he gets his powers. Since we are obviously dealing with a Superman-type, it would be like having the classic Kent family raise Clark for 18 years and then expecting Clark to immediately join forces with General Zod when they meet. Except that Zod would somehow persuade Clark by committing extreme atrocities right in front of Clark. Why would anybody think this story would work any better with Mark instead of Clark?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

So it seems pretty obvious you're either intentionally ignoring what happens in the Finale or have only watched clips. Because, well, he explains why he waited (he needed to know if his son had powers, becuase if he didn't have them, he'd be no better than the rest of the humans). Which was why he waited... and he even admits as he's beating the hell out of his son, that he should have probably started teaching him sooner becuase it wasn't going the way he'd expected it to (IE, he didn't fully understand that human kids weren't Viltrumite kids. Hell there's an exchange between Nolan and Cecil earlier in the series that highlights this).

But hey. Nothing like beating on an opponent made of straw amirite?

[Shellhead]

So it seems pretty obvious you're either intentionally ignoring what happens in the Finale or have only watched clips. Because, well, he explains why he waited (he needed to know if his son had powers, becuase if he didn't have them, he'd be no better than the rest of the humans). Which was why he waited... and he even admits as he's beating the hell out of his son, that he should have probably started teaching him sooner becuase it wasn't going the way he'd expected it to (IE, he didn't fully understand that human kids weren't Viltrumite kids. Hell there's an exchange between Nolan and Cecil earlier in the series that highlights this).

But hey. Nothing like beating on an opponent made of straw amirite?

Thanks for the insults. I watched the whole series and I haven't read the comics. My point still stands. Nolan is the better father because he raises his son with a perfectly decent earth-style upbringing, right up to the moment where he secretly kills a bunch of good guys for an utterly stupid reason (if they are too weak to be allowed to live, then he should just cleanse the entire planet) and then later brutally assaults his own son while shouting like a villain and committing atrocities. He doesn't understand human kids? And yet he is on the verge of discarding many centuries of certainty because he suddenly realizes that he might be wrong? But he still says his wife is nothing more than a pet? Do you not see how this is sloppy writing that is all over the place and doesn't make sense? Even if it was a mistake and he belatedly realizes that he should started teaching Mark sooner, it still seems ridiculous that he trains his son with conventional superhero morality, right up to advising him how to handle specific situations that come up, like that criminal Titan or that trip to Mars.

[Hiromi]

kinda a spoiler maybe so I'm tagging it just in case spoilers:

Nolan explains his mind set in a lot more depth and honesty later on, basically a lot of what he said while beating down Mark was complete bullshit he might have once believed but had completely changed since, IOWs Mark wasn't the one he was trying to convince in that fight, it was himself

end of spoilers

[The Dog]

kinda a spoiler maybe so I'm tagging it just in case spoilers:

Nolan explains his mind set in a lot more depth and honesty later on, basically a lot of what he said while beating down Mark was complete bullshit he might have once believed but had completely changed since, IOWs Mark wasn't the one he was trying to convince in that fight, it was himself

end of spoilers

spoilers:

And the reason for the infiltration over just showing up to openly take over is because there's only 50 Viltrumites left in the universe after the Scourge virus hit the Viltrumite race. Nolan had a secondary mission besides taking over Earth: seeing if Viltrumites could breed with Humans and produce proper Viltrumite children. So he had to integrate into human society and play nice until he saw whether or not Mark would gain Viltrumite powers or be human. And Nolan isn't even the fastest Viltrumite to convert from their old ways: that probably belongs to the Viltrumite Lucan, who pretty much converted as soon as he landed on Earth and met a human woman, to the point of defying his then-leader's order to mate with as many women as possible because it would upset her. He also happens to look like if Steve Harvey was a bodybuilder.

end of spoilers

[Nik Hasta]

Thanks for the insults. I watched the whole series and I haven't read the comics. My point still stands. Nolan is the better father because he raises his son with a perfectly decent earth-style upbringing, right up to the moment where he secretly kills a bunch of good guys for an utterly stupid reason (if they are too weak to be allowed to live, then he should just cleanse the entire planet) and then later brutally assaults his own son while shouting like a villain and committing atrocities. He doesn't understand human kids? And yet he is on the verge of discarding many centuries of certainty because he suddenly realizes that he might be wrong? But he still says his wife is nothing more than a pet? Do you not see how this is sloppy writing that is all over the place and doesn't make sense? Even if it was a mistake and he belatedly realizes that he should started teaching Mark sooner, it still seems ridiculous that he trains his son with conventional superhero morality, right up to advising him how to handle specific situations that come up, like that criminal Titan or that trip to Mars.

Man, it's almost like Nolan is written to be a character riddled with internal conflict, caught between two worlds that both demand intense responsibility from him in both positive and negative ways and that causes his behaviour to be counter-intuitive.

Almost like centuries of social hyperviolent fascist indoctrination has been challenged by the first true experiences of personal freedom and genuine love that he has ever felt in his life, nurtured slowly over the course of literal decades. It's almost like those two conflicting sets of feelings are causing him to act somewhat irrationally.

Man, imagine if this conflict was entirely intentional and, in fact, the main theme of the character at this stage in his arc. O_O

Imagine if that were the case!

But alas, you are quite correct, it must be sloppy writing. Too bad really, because all of the above might have been quite compelling if had been intentional.

[Nik Hasta]

Like, I know the above sarcasm is not helpful to cogent discourse but I am really having a hard time with you watching an episode of a show that centres on a character battling with his conflicting ideologies and having an internal struggle between his perceived duty and his love for his family and have come away with the take; "Nolan seems to have conflicting ideas about what he wants and acted irrationally in response, this is bad writing for some reason,"

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Thanks for the insults. I watched the whole series and I haven't read the comics. My point still stands. Nolan is the better father because he raises his son with a perfectly decent earth-style upbringing, right up to the moment where he secretly kills a bunch of good guys for an utterly stupid reason (if they are too weak to be allowed to live, then he should just cleanse the entire planet) and then later brutally assaults his own son while shouting like a villain and committing atrocities. He doesn't understand human kids? And yet he is on the verge of discarding many centuries of certainty because he suddenly realizes that he might be wrong? But he still says his wife is nothing more than a pet? Do you not see how this is sloppy writing that is all over the place and doesn't make sense? Even if it was a mistake and he belatedly realizes that he should started teaching Mark sooner, it still seems ridiculous that he trains his son with conventional superhero morality, right up to advising him how to handle specific situations that come up, like that criminal Titan or that trip to Mars.

To ignore everything, literally nothing I said was me 'insulting you'.

Calling you out for either ignoring what's happening, or not watching it; and pointing out the fact you're arguing against a strawman, are not insults.

It's calling you out, and pointing out the strawman your using to justify your bad argumentation.