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  1. #46
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Maybe that's what it feels like to y'all, but hopefully that isn't how we're all expressing ourselves. I've gone on record as saying I'm glad that there are so many who enjoy this current era, that there's interesting concepts and ideas, and that it's great to see so a wider array of characters being used. I don't see our criticism as peeing in kool aid, that's too extreme for the criticism I've seen, we really are just pointing out something and saying "is this really as great as everyone thinks?" and then discussing the point. I think the distinction between constructive or positive criticism and outright toxic hate-reading is more clear than that.

    The point, for me, in these back and forth conversations is to possibly raise awareness of issues that some might be deliberately overlooking, and then on the other hand to find positive aspects that might have been missed because the flaws were too glaring for some.
    Back and forth criticisms are fine. Most “criticisms” are usually general attacks on the work. For the 90’s xmen i always see people say “it’s too convoluted”. Like somehow they are right because some youtuber broke it down in a way they like and then other people start saying it. They fail to realize there is so much nuance to be had in these discussions and general criticisms like that are lazy and really do nothing except as a service to annoy me. This is just one example. I speak in regards to the people who think these mic drops explanations are suppose to take away my enjoyment from something. It also goes the other way around. I am not the biggest fan of grant morrison. I will even say that cassandra nova’s origin is stupid. I could use this as a means to “prove” why she is the stupidest character in marvel comics. This fails to address many things, like for instance, a character’s origin is only one small part of their character. The biggest takeaway though is it makes me a complete ass for trying to prove its garbage when other people really get a lot out of it. They can be inspired, or any number of positive emotions. Real life is hard and sometimes these small pleasures are what get us through the day. I have to even tell myself this sometime when people are going in hard on criticism to something i adore because yeah i don’t know what that person is going through and experiencing. Maybe a bad day? Though my shade is being thrown more in the direction to people who don’t really fall under that category. They are the ones that just want there to be one truth in fandoms and thats “x is good and z is ass” like somehow they are the arbiters of what the rest of us are suppose to enjoy.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Agreed. There's a difference between criticism and "this writer is garbage" posts that don't lend anything to the conversation.
    Where was this mindset during Austen's, Rosenberg's and Bendis's run or AVX and IVX? Was criticism valid then but is unwarranted now? I guess it all comes down to how you like your X-men, if mutants are on the back foot or not flexing their power then the stories are bad and the writers suck. If however mutants are winning and flexing hard then it's the best thing ever. Remember when characters dying in Rosenberg's run was constantly criticized as cheap and done for shock value. Now with resurrections far more mutants have died some willingly (Pixie in Way of X) and its all good for some because mutants are now immortal so who cares. AVX and IVX were bad but XOS was great because... It's all about perspective. Some posters will say Hickman is the best, this is the best the X-men have been in a long long time, I love this new era so I hate any criticism and all those who criticize Krakoa are haters. While in the past the same posters were saying the opposite, Rosenberg sucks, Bendis is awful, Marvel hates the X-men and so forth. Its a mentality of I hate this so I'm free to criticize it but I love this so I oppose any criticism of it, I'm right you're wrong.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Master of Sound's Avatar
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    I think X-Men fans are the haarreductie conics fans to please. I think even some writers said so.

    And look at this board, with every issue that hits the shelves, some will complaint about the content, the writer, the art, the team/ cast and so on. With every new series created, some will complain, woth every new team, same same.

    I think that is just the way it was, is and will always be.
    "I have been dancing with you my entire life "

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    Back and forth criticisms are fine. Most “criticisms” are usually general attacks on the work. For the 90’s xmen i always see people say “it’s too convoluted”. Like somehow they are right because some youtuber broke it down in a way they like and then other people start saying it. They fail to realize there is so much nuance to be had in these discussions and general criticisms like that are lazy and really do nothing except as a service to annoy me. This is just one example. I speak in regards to the people who think these mic drops explanations are suppose to take away my enjoyment from something. It also goes the other way around. I am not the biggest fan of grant morrison. I will even say that cassandra nova’s origin is stupid. I could use this as a means to “prove” why she is the stupidest character in marvel comics. This fails to address many things, like for instance, a character’s origin is only one small part of their character. The biggest takeaway though is it makes me a complete ass for trying to prove its garbage when other people really get a lot out of it. They can be inspired, or any number of positive emotions. Real life is hard and sometimes these small pleasures are what get us through the day. I have to even tell myself this sometime when people are going in hard on criticism to something i adore because yeah i don’t know what that person is going through and experiencing. Maybe a bad day? Though my shade is being thrown more in the direction to people who don’t really fall under that category. They are the ones that just want there to be one truth in fandoms and thats “x is good and z is ass” like somehow they are the arbiters of what the rest of us are suppose to enjoy.
    It is two sides of the same coin. What makes someone want to go and tell strangers how much they like a book? Or want to see that other strangers do like it? It is the same motivation for people who want to share their disappointment, and confirm if there are others who share those views.

    I certainly don't go around throwing shade or trolling people who really love something I do not, I certainly stay out of pretty much all of the appreciation threads even if I somewhat like the character. And while I think you are generalizing too much to know what exactly sets you off, I do see people who are way too negative and who resort to attacks and not criticism, but I also see just as much people who feel that anyone who is not liking something about the new direction is 'problematic' if you know what I mean.

    I do not remember if it is written in the rules, but I recall the general rule of these boards was to address the opinion, not the person. And as some advice, engaging someone who just seems to want to repeat how garbage something is is only giving them more chances to repeat that. Trust me, I have thrown some bait out there before that didn't get a bite and I never thought about bringing it up again.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Where was this mindset during Austen's, Rosenberg's and Bendis's run or AVX and IVX? Was criticism valid then but is unwarranted now? I guess it all comes down to how you like your X-men, if mutants are on the back foot or not flexing their power then the stories are bad and the writers suck. If however mutants are winning and flexing hard then it's the best thing ever. Remember when characters dying in Rosenberg's run was constantly criticized as cheap and done for shock value. Now with resurrections far more mutants have died some willingly (Pixie in Way of X) and its all good for some because mutants are now immortal so who cares. AVX and IVX were bad but XOS was great because... It's all about perspective. Some posters will say Hickman is the best, this is the best the X-men have been in a long long time, I love this new era so I hate any criticism and all those who criticize Krakoa are haters. While in the past the same posters were saying the opposite, Rosenberg sucks, Bendis is awful, Marvel hates the X-men and so forth. Its a mentality of I hate this so I'm free to criticize it but I love this so I oppose any criticism of it, I'm right you're wrong.
    Thumbs up!
    On social media is easy to see fans making less of Bendis,Austen, Rosenberg very casually. It's like they arent people or doesn't has fans. But the moment criticism come for Hickman they just change and start attacking people.
    They are putting him on a pedestal, so eeryone that dares to criticize is bad seen.

    I think critics have been very constructive about Hickman's run, many interesting points being discussed. Like you said, they keep killing characters just because they will back on the next issue. Pixie just had her head exploded very gratuit way.


    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    Digital sales absolutely count as sales to marvel. They just donít release those numbers to the public. they donít release any of the sales numbers to the public. All the sales numbers are from third parties who try to estimate it. They donít include digital sales because itís harder for them to guess at than print sales.
    Amazon doesn't show the numbers for reasons that sales are bad. If it was good, they would show it all the time
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-02-2021 at 11:47 AM.

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    It is two sides of the same coin. What makes someone want to go and tell strangers how much they like a book? Or want to see that other strangers do like it? It is the same motivation for people who want to share their disappointment, and confirm if there are others who share those views.

    I certainly don't go around throwing shade or trolling people who really love something I do not, I certainly stay out of pretty much all of the appreciation threads even if I somewhat like the character. And while I think you are generalizing too much to know what exactly sets you off, I do see people who are way too negative and who resort to attacks and not criticism, but I also see just as much people who feel that anyone who is not liking something about the new direction is 'problematic' if you know what I mean.

    I do not remember if it is written in the rules, but I recall the general rule of these boards was to address the opinion, not the person. And as some advice, engaging someone who just seems to want to repeat how garbage something is is only giving them more chances to repeat that. Trust me, I have thrown some bait out there before that didn't get a bite and I never thought about bringing it up again.
    For what you are saying to be true, i feel that people claiming “valid criticisms” would have to get to a point where they can see both the bad and acknowledge the good. 90% of the criticizers, whether it be 90’s, morrison, bendis, hickman, etc. they would have to have a certain appreciation to have a valid criticism. That’s not the way it goes. Its all in, no matter what. Why is like this? Because we all want to be right. Its human nature, but the internet is a pitiful place when it comes down to it. Conversations and criticisms are, more often than not, a way to flex one’s ego and bring people down.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    What if we pick up our comics from our LCS but don't have the book on our pull list and instead purchase unsold copies? How does that affect support of corporate comics?
    Depends on the book in question.

    For some books it does not matter. The store is going to order x amount no matter what. Especially if those books pack the bins. Or the first printing is still there and the store keeps ordering the second and up printings (looking at YOU Star Wars).

    Batman and X-Men books are examples. I could NOT buy say New Mutants until my store has a 50% off sale (once a year) or buy 3 get 1 free sale (Black Friday-New Years). I won't have trouble getting say 10 out of 12 issues at below cover price. I would still get the complete year (or two) run.

    You waiting on New Mutants or Batman or Superman is NOT going to hurt them as much as if you did that with say Ms Marvel or Blue Beetle or Runaways. However variant covers have helped a bunch of books stay around.

    Give you an example
    Black Panther #13 21,024 3 variants including Virgin cover
    BP #14 23,310 Carnage variant 2,286 increase
    BP#15 18,419 Killmonger variant 4,891 DECREASE
    BP #16 16,146 No variant 2,273 decrease
    Almost a 5,000 decrease between 4 issues. 5,000 between ONE-that many folks checked out after that Carnage variant? Those could NOT have been readers.

    Funny thing is Marvel and DC variants get ORDERED. Unlike many indy books who average 6 variants an issue.

    Now take say Savage Dragon at Image or Gung Ho at Ablaze or the upcoming Static book. Those are BUY NOW or regret it later books. My experience with anything with Static-unsold copies don't last long with him.
    Savage Dragon at one store I go to only orders two-because that is all they sell. That has been an issue with all the indy books at that store. Getting a compete run later on is an issue with them for any indy book NOT named Power Rangers.
    I won't even talk Scout Comics where ALL those books are an issue to get. Even the stores have issues with them.

  8. #53
    Incredible Member Captain Nash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    Completionism. I want to know the story of my favorite characters, even if I don't like what's being done with them. If I really and truly hate the book, though, I'll be pirating rather than buying (only had to do it once, though).
    This sums up my feelings as well. Well, the first part. Not into pirating but to each their own. I am somewhat OCD so I need to know what's going on with the characters I've read for years and years. If Chuck Austen couldn't make me drop a core X-Men book, nothing will. I specify core as there's been times I have not read a side book that's not core - Claremont's Exiles run after the first book ended, Young X-Men and things like that are books I've not read. I'll even read the current Excalibur run, but I"m not paying for it anymore, I'm not the most patient person but it's bad enough I can wait for it to show up on Marvel Unlimited. Ironic, Betsy Braddock/Psylocke was my favorite character and I couldn't imagine not knowing what was going on with her, but I did it before with the Exiles book, at least this time I'll just read it along with the whole MU package. No more money directly for the title.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nash View Post
    This sums up my feelings as well. Well, the first part. Not into pirating but to each their own. I am somewhat OCD so I need to know what's going on with the characters I've read for years and years. If Chuck Austen couldn't make me drop a core X-Men book, nothing will. I specify core as there's been times I have not read a side book that's not core - Claremont's Exiles run after the first book ended, Young X-Men and things like that are books I've not read. I'll even read the current Excalibur run, but I"m not paying for it anymore, I'm not the most patient person but it's bad enough I can wait for it to show up on Marvel Unlimited. Ironic, Betsy Braddock/Psylocke was my favorite character and I couldn't imagine not knowing what was going on with her, but I did it before with the Exiles book, at least this time I'll just read it along with the whole MU package. No more money directly for the title.
    OT, but I do wonder how much Marvel tracks the reading habits of Unlimited readers. I can't imagine there are that many who actually have the time or interest to read *everything* that shows up on the service, and I wonder if there are patterns that have an impact on the current output and choice of trade collections.

  10. #55
    Kurtty Fan Slicknickshady's Avatar
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    Because you hope it’s good!

    I don’t buy every issue released hoping it sucks. But so far all the stuff since Hickman has took over has except Way Of X. They Ruined Moira. Outside of a few Kurt and Kitty moments and Way Of X. It’s all trash. Eye Boy has been written terrible by Leah. Sunspot is trash again. But not shocked since Hickman destroyed Canonball back in the day by putting him with Smasher. Emma Frost is trash currently. I could go on and on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Is it wrong that I want to see Krakoa burn??
    I can’t wait till it does. So bad it needs to burn!
    Last edited by Slicknickshady; 05-02-2021 at 01:50 PM.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Steroid's Avatar
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    While this generally doesn't apply to X-Men for me I will use my relationship with the Avengers to convey my thoughts on the question. When I was a kid my grandfather was a big comic fan and loved the Avengers. He had every single issue and taught me to read through them. When he passed away he left me his collection and I have kept it going 30 years since with having every single issue. I love the Avengers but some runs such as the current Aaron run I truly detest but I keep reading for the characters and out of the love I have for my grandad. I will keep this tradition going for the rest of my life and eventually my son will take it on. The series is more than just a comic for me.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    I’d say that if there’s hard core of fans who’ll buy the books no matter what, then obviously Marvel are not going to put too much effort into catering to that demographic. Besides, they can probably be placated by tossing in some lazy nostalgia bait from time-to-time - things that remind you of your youth are comforting.

  13. #58
    White Walker Icefanatic's Avatar
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    I started reading Marvel/DC comics as a kid and formed an attachment with their characters that made them feel like friends. When I got older and had the money and opportunity to get books regularly, X-Men became a must-by. When Iceman became a favorite character I would by anything with him in it just to see what he was up to. I did that with other characters too, even if I couldn't get the book monthly I would pick up an issue to see what was up with Peter Parker or how the Fantastic Four family was getting by.

    It was all a part of buying into the conceit that Marvel/DC were 'biographers', telling the 'true story'; of these characters lives, and wanting to share in them. Even if I hated it, I would buy and read and complain. Then Marvell and DC finally broke me of that.

    Marvel/DC did, and continue to do, too much wrong with too many characters to see that as true anymore, for me anyway. I still feel that way about the older stuff, but the current stuff of recent years I see as something like professional(or semi-professorial) fan-fiction. I don't see the current stuff as 'real' so I generally don't buy it anymore. At my peek I was probably buying about three dozen Marvel/DC comics a month, more Marvel than DC. I dropped modern-DC completely a few years back and after dropping modern-Marvel for over a year I went back to a few monthly books, none of them X-Books. I only get something now if I like the story because that's all the current books are to me, just stories.

    I started off liking HoX/PoX but soured on it rather quickly. It feels like an Age of Apocalypse-alternate-type thing that keeps trying to pass itself off as the real deal. The two books I was most looking forward to: Excalibur and Marauders, I can't stand, even if they are an alternate reality.

    I'll occasionally pick up an issue of something X-related out of curiosity but there is always more there to push me away than attract me to another issue. My days of buying/reading and hating and then continuing to buy/read are thankfully over.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Where was this mindset during Austen's, Rosenberg's and Bendis's run or AVX and IVX? Was criticism valid then but is unwarranted now? I guess it all comes down to how you like your X-men, if mutants are on the back foot or not flexing their power then the stories are bad and the writers suck. If however mutants are winning and flexing hard then it's the best thing ever. Remember when characters dying in Rosenberg's run was constantly criticized as cheap and done for shock value. Now with resurrections far more mutants have died some willingly (Pixie in Way of X) and its all good for some because mutants are now immortal so who cares. AVX and IVX were bad but XOS was great because... It's all about perspective. Some posters will say Hickman is the best, this is the best the X-men have been in a long long time, I love this new era so I hate any criticism and all those who criticize Krakoa are haters. While in the past the same posters were saying the opposite, Rosenberg sucks, Bendis is awful, Marvel hates the X-men and so forth. Its a mentality of I hate this so I'm free to criticize it but I love this so I oppose any criticism of it, I'm right you're wrong.
    Reread my statement because I'm actually fine with criticism. I'm literally talking about the "this is trash" posts, three words and no more. In fact as contentious as the Rosenberg run was, I thought this board had some very fine conversations about it. I enjoy reading thoughtful criticism because it displays care for the characters.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  15. #60
    Fantastic Member twisted sun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Midnight View Post
    I only read the books I want. I tend to avoid titles that I don't find interesting.
    Same here. Easier on the wallet that way lol

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