View Poll Results: Should Scarlet Witch be called The Pretender?

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  • Yes! She’s the Pretender!

    62 38.04%
  • No! Stop calling her that!

    101 61.96%
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  1. #556
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    This whole thread seems to bounce back and forth between acting like Children's Crusade doesn't exist and that Children's Crusade is canon when it suggests M-Day might have been Wanda's fault.
    Why is there this whole 'Pretend she might not have done it ' narrative. We all hopefully read the same story
    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I mean, fine, but if you accept Children's Crusade as gospel then you have to accept that Scott refused to allow Wanda to give mutants back their powers and all the other stuff from that story that makes the X-Men look bad.
    Its preeetty universal if youre in a story about a person attempting genocide and youre NOT that person its nigh impossible to look bad. lol And Scott isnt the emperor of Mutants he cant make that decision buuuuut i wouldnt want The Pretender mucking around with the last 2% of my people soooo good call
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  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Why is there this whole 'Pretend she might not have done it ' narrative. We all hopefully read the same story
    We've been over this before; if you know someone for 50 years and you see them suddenly becoming genocidal murderers for no reason, your first instinct is "well, there must be some other explanation."

    What Wanda does in the "no more mutants" panel has nothing to do with the selfless superheroine who was an out-and-proud mutant when the X-Men were hiding behind secret identities. So her fans just go, well, it's either a writer's mistake like if someone drew Batman with a gun, or there's some other explanation for it, like "Doom did it" (I don't know why Doom would have a plan to wipe out mutants, but it's at least plausible, while "Wanda did it" is impossible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubbyboo View Post
    Leave this thread. Let it die. It's become negative. It's fun coming here and interacting with Wanda fans from around the world- a nice group. The Wanda fans I've seen are positive and lots of fun to interact with - stick with that :-) I'm loving now as I'm wrapping up this semester almost everyone at my university knows who she is by Wanda and Scarlet Witch. Don't even mind absence in comics as she's so popular now. All is hear is positive stuff and how much they love her etc... lol my brother's friends (LGBT btw and the guys are just so fun and handsome and smart) adore her and the ones who read comics tell me she always has been fave along with Jean but now she like icon status period even if you don't read comics lol. Just enjoy it all.
    I get your point, but Wanda hasn't been in comics for a long time, so at this moment the "Pretender" meme is her only comics presence (even if it's mostly absence). If she ever gets to be in a story again I can go and talk about that.

    I understand why I should let this argument die, but I feel like Marvel won't let it die, and if they're going to stir up anti-Wanda fandom to sell comics, then there's nothing much to discuss except why they're doing that and whether it's justified.
    Last edited by gurkle; 05-26-2021 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #558
    Incredible Member Bunch of Coconuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Why is there this whole 'Pretend she might not have done it ' narrative. We all hopefully read the same story
    Why do people ignore that Wanda was possessed? We all hopefully read the same story.

    Let’s not forget that before M-Day, “Wanda” attacked and killed Avengers. Y’know...the superhero team she actually cared about.

    But somehow, Wanda had it out for everyone, out of nowhere, with no buildup? And forgot she had already remembered her kids were gone? And displayed a power level unheard of before?

    Possession.
    Last edited by Bunch of Coconuts; 05-26-2021 at 07:15 PM.

  4. #559
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Forgive me, y'all. It's been an age.

    Haven't reread Disassembled and Children's Crusade in a while.
    But I remember feeling that CC did more harm than good in trying to exonerate Wanda by haphazardly blame-shifting to Doom.
    And not providing much in the way of answers. Or clarity.

    I'm inclined to believe that what people do when they're possessed isn't really up to them.
    But what they do before being possessed is another matter. Especially when their plan is to hijack a cosmic force.
    Depending on their state of mind, the people who make that decision could be directly responsible for whatever outcome happens should they succeed, ethically and legally.

    Do we know what Wanda's state of mind when she went to Strange and Doom with her "plan"?
    Was she of sound mind? Or was she not able to recognize the possible consequences of her actions?


    If he haven't gotten any new answers to these questions, then I think the last 38 pages of this thread have been nothing more than...a fun exercise.

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  5. #560
    Incredible Member Bunch of Coconuts's Avatar
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    It’s also important to ask “did she know that Doom was summoning the Life Force, and that it had the potential to possess her”. No canonical evidence points to either of these being true.

    Keep in mind, too, that to “properly” summon the LF, it needed a bit more oomph, which Doom either was unaware of, or anticipated*.

    Tacking on a bit more...since it’s never been mentioned before or after CC, I’d hazard a guess that knowledge surrounding the LF is murky.

    *And this is where the “its Doom’s fault” comes into play. I never read it as Doom wanting to create another reality, or that he wanted to wipe out mutants. I read it as him taking advantage of Wanda to purposely get her possessed so he could further manipulate her, or give the power to himself (which, again, needed more magical oomph he might not have known was needed).
    Last edited by Bunch of Coconuts; 05-26-2021 at 10:08 PM.

  6. #561

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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Forgive me, y'all. It's been an age.

    Haven't reread Disassembled and Children's Crusade in a while.
    But I remember feeling that CC did more harm than good in trying to exonerate Wanda by haphazardly blame-shifting to Doom.
    And not providing much in the way of answers. Or clarity.

    I'm inclined to believe that what people do when they're possessed isn't really up to them.
    But what they do before being possessed is another matter. Especially when their plan is to hijack a cosmic force.
    Depending on their state of mind, the people who make that decision could be directly responsible for whatever outcome happens should they succeed, ethically and legally.

    Do we know what Wanda's state of mind when she went to Strange and Doom with her "plan"?
    Was she of sound mind? Or was she not able to recognize the possible consequences of her actions?


    If he haven't gotten any new answers to these questions, then I think the last 38 pages of this thread have been nothing more than...a fun exercise.

    That image... omg lol.
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  7. #562
    All-New Member Cubbyboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Forgive me, y'all. It's been an age.

    Haven't reread Disassembled and Children's Crusade in a while.
    But I remember feeling that CC did more harm than good in trying to exonerate Wanda by haphazardly blame-shifting to Doom.
    And not providing much in the way of answers. Or clarity.

    I'm inclined to believe that what people do when they're possessed isn't really up to them.
    But what they do before being possessed is another matter. Especially when their plan is to hijack a cosmic force.
    Depending on their state of mind, the people who make that decision could be directly responsible for whatever outcome happens should they succeed, ethically and legally.

    Do we know what Wanda's state of mind when she went to Strange and Doom with her "plan"?
    Was she of sound mind? Or was she not able to recognize the possible consequences of her actions?


    If he haven't gotten any new answers to these questions, then I think the last 38 pages of this thread have been nothing more than...a fun exercise.

    Thank you. Nice to see the different sides presented in a thoughtful way -without the "stab her" and "r*pe an android" garbage" being used. What was her state of mind is interesting. I'm always inclined to toss the whole story as it seems such a calculated and blatant -then and still now- move to reduce the mutant population in an attempt to help slagging sales and aside from lack of creativity also reeked of misogyny with " poor lil woman can't handle her power". As a female that has always pissed me off in comics. Only male writers btw ever write that stuff. Boobs and trauma get the libido going. Your perspective makes it easier to shift from that and work with it as a less negative and commercial/sales based storyline and hope that something positive may come out of it for all involved- Wanda, X and fans of both.

  8. #563
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubbyboo View Post
    I'm always inclined to toss the whole story as it seems such a calculated and blatant -then and still now- move to reduce the mutant population in an attempt to help slagging sales and aside from lack of creativity also reeked of misogyny with " poor lil woman can't handle her power". As a female that has always pissed me off in comics. Only male writers btw ever write that stuff. Boobs and trauma get the libido going.
    Curiously, as a female, I never saw it that way: men and women can both find themselves in a miserable state.

    Actually, I mostly saw authors taking a malicious pleasure in knocking heroes off their pedestal: how many male heroes were shown sinking into alcohol…

    The thing is that we know Wanda, we saw her fighting, helping her friends… We can’t or we shouldn’t think that she could inflict harm in cold blood… well, if continuity is respected, of course.

  9. #564
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Forgive me, y'all. It's been an age.

    Haven't reread Disassembled and Children's Crusade in a while.
    But I remember feeling that CC did more harm than good in trying to exonerate Wanda by haphazardly blame-shifting to Doom.
    And not providing much in the way of answers. Or clarity.

    I'm inclined to believe that what people do when they're possessed isn't really up to them.
    But what they do before being possessed is another matter. Especially when their plan is to hijack a cosmic force.
    Depending on their state of mind, the people who make that decision could be directly responsible for whatever outcome happens should they succeed, ethically and legally.

    Do we know what Wanda's state of mind when she went to Strange and Doom with her "plan"?
    Was she of sound mind? Or was she not able to recognize the possible consequences of her actions?


    If he haven't gotten any new answers to these questions, then I think the last 38 pages of this thread have been nothing more than...a fun exercise.

    Agreed what we know so far was that in HoM She acted in a moment of anger on a story in which she didn´t have her mental faculties and was suffering a kind of schizophrenia because her powers went out of control and on Children´s Crusade we learn she got that power level because she got possessed by the "life force" after she made a deal with Dr Doom to get enough power so she could bring back her children to life. You are right this particular retcon did more harm than good, it introduces the possesion aspect but makes her responsible of getting possesed in the first place, unless she wasn´t in her right mind when she decided to invoke the life force but we really don´t know that.

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  10. #565
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    I would say one of the biggest mistakes with CC was trying to shift the blame of M-Day to Doom.

    Doom, the guy Marvel goes to frankly ludicrous extremes to excuse or leather pants anytime he looks to be less than some edgy noble demon; and actively punishes characters that beat him the moment it a different writer.

    Even if it wasn’t pretty clear that Marvel has internalised Bendis’ distaste for Wanda; trying to pin on their golden boy supervillain was never going to work. You’d honestly more chance of it being resolved by making it Xavier than Doom

  11. #566
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Agreed nobody will defend Xavier this days, being morally ambigious and a jerk has become his second mutation.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  12. #567
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Why do people ignore that Wanda was possessed? We all hopefully read the same story.
    Yeeeeah no one's denying that. Buuut it was no P5 level of possession. She possessed s power with no mind or motivation of it's own. Had she said "Everybody unicorns" everyone woulda been turned into out favorite mythical one horned horse but that's not what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Let’s not forget that before M-Day, “Wanda” attacked and killed Avengers. Y’know...the superhero team she actually cared about.
    Ok. Failing to see your point
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    But somehow, Wanda had it out for everyone, out of nowhere, with no buildup? And forgot she had already remembered her kids were gone? And displayed a power level unheard of before?
    Was disassembled not build up? Was the kooky relationship with Vision and fake kids not build up?



    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    We've been over this before; if you know someone for 50 years and you see them suddenly becoming genocidal murderers for no reason, your first instinct is "well, there must be some other explanation."
    Not if I was presented with numerous examples of that person heading in that direction
    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    What Wanda does in the "no more mutants" panel has nothing to do with the selfless superheroine who was an out-and-proud mutant when the X-Men were hiding behind secret identities. So her fans just go, well, it's either a writer's mistake like if someone drew Batman with a gun, or there's some other explanation for it, like "Doom did it" (I don't know why Doom would have a plan to wipe out mutants, but it's at least plausible, while "Wanda did it" is impossible).
    lol....Yeah that whole story in Avengers wasn't enough? DOOM forced her to say No More Mutants? What book is that in? Page number? Got a scan?
    lol Jebus!



    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I get your point, but Wanda hasn't been in comics for a long time, so at this moment the "Pretender" meme is her only comics presence (even if it's mostly absence). If she ever gets to be in a story again I can go and talk about that.
    isn't that what Appreciation threads are for tho? It's not like this is the only thread to talk about the Pretender

    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I understand why I should let this argument die, but I feel like Marvel won't let it die, and if they're going to stir up anti-Wanda fandom to sell comics, then there's nothing much to discuss except why they're doing that and whether it's justified.
    huh? The aftermath of that storyline was felt for a decade in real time. And what are these comics they're trying to sell HoX and PoX sold like Gangbusters because the X-Men. Don't think there's a buncha folks buying it to read people sh!t talking The Pretender...that's just a welcome bonus
    GrindrStone(D)

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    I would say one of the biggest mistakes with CC was trying to shift the blame of M-Day to Doom.

    Doom, the guy Marvel goes to frankly ludicrous extremes to excuse or leather pants anytime he looks to be less than some edgy noble demon; and actively punishes characters that beat him the moment it a different writer.

    Even if it wasn’t pretty clear that Marvel has internalised Bendis’ distaste for Wanda; trying to pin on their golden boy supervillain was never going to work. You’d honestly more chance of it being resolved by making it Xavier than Doom
    honestly with this whole moira plot going on there's a chance that could happen.

  14. #569
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    Even if they did go with the (tbh) ludicrous idea that Moira and Xavier set Wanda to go off like a jack in the box, someone would just retcon it to being Wanda gaslighting them a year or two down the road and everyone knows it.

  15. #570
    "Comics journalism"? Filthy Mutie's Avatar
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    Yes, she is the Pretender.

    Thread complete.

    Mods, you may now close this thread. Thank you for your service.

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