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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    These are characters, not zoot suits!

    Edit: Also, they're still fashionable. But they won't be if you purposefully age them up and relegate them to in the past stories. That's just stupid.
    1. I had to look up what zoot suits were.

    2. By constantly reimagining them, you're showing how dated they are conceptually. You could argue that that is aging them up.

  2. #77
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    1. I had to look up what zoot suits were.

    2. By constantly reimagining them, you're showing how dated they are conceptually. You could argue that that is aging them up.
    1. You're welcome!

    2. Disagree - constantly reimagining is what's keeping them from becoming dated. You could and should argue that that is what makes them timeless. You can always reimagine them for today. You can always imagine some way to make them speak for audiences today. I mean, they've approaching a century and yet we still get stories as fresh, relevant, and of the times as when these characters were made. They're still speaking to people today. If you think that's a sign of them being outdated, then I don't think you know what that word means.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    1. I had to look up what zoot suits were.

    2. By constantly reimagining them, you're showing how dated they are conceptually. You could argue that that is aging them up.
    Actually, apart from cosmetic changes, most DC characters haven't really been ''reimagined'' all that much as compared to their core concepts.

    Yes, due to the floating timeline, their world has been gradually updated. And characterization and tone has evolved for many of them, along with the sophistication of storytelling.

    Superman today isn't really that different from Superman in, say, 1945. Yes, he's different from the 1938 Superman but then that evolution happened in the early years of the character's publication. The narrative of his fictional world has progressed (he now has a wife and a kid, among other things) and the storytelling is a lot more sophisticated, but fundamentally its the same character, superifically updated for the modern-day.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    ...and even the MCU has to reboot or find a new multiverse version of a recasted Tony Stark some time.
    Wrong. MCU Tony Stark IS -- or rather, WAS -- Robert Downey, Jr. They gave his Iron Man a satisfying, heroic conclusion, AND are proving that the MCU can continue without him. They're not rebooting the MCU or "find[ing] a new multiverse version of...Tony Stark" just because some disgruntled fans refuse to accept death can be permanent in the MCU.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Wrong. MCU Tony Stark IS -- or rather, WAS -- Robert Downey, Jr. They gave his Iron Man a satisfying, heroic conclusion, AND are proving that the MCU can continue without him. They're not rebooting the MCU or "find[ing] a new multiverse version of...Tony Stark" just because some disgruntled fans refuse to accept death can be permanent in the MCU.
    Well...for now.

    It really depends on how long the MCU continues though, without some kind of reboot or shift to an alternate earth. But you can bet that eventually, most likely within the decade, we'll have a Tony Stark back on-screen - whether its RDJ or someone else.

    One advantage other media adaptations have over the comics is that they don't need to go on endlessly. They can have a clear beginning, middle and end. Nolan took advantage of that. The MCU is doing the same, though of course, the MCU has been ongoing for 13 years and counting so the 'end' is nowhere in sight.

    But eventually, either the MCU will get rebooted or we'll explore a new earth/continuity within it. Or something. But a new version of Iron Man will show up.

  6. #81
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I have long believed that the readers demanding the characters start aging with them believe that they're the only ones who deserve to read these characters having stories told about them with modern sensibilities and that these characters should bend to their reading experience. They often get compared unfavorably to manga which is designed to tell one story through a unique creator's vision and end.

    They're not the same. They're constructs created to be serialized. It's a different ball game. The problem isn't that the characters are stagnant it's that the people in charge of them are unable to think of ways to tell stories to the themes that made the characters sing beforehand and instead are trying to push round pegs into square circles. I'm overgeneralizing, but the wrong people stayed at the top for too long, couldn't get over themselves and the line has suffered for it.

    I'm not against temporary stuff or Elseworlds, but asking that Bruce finally die or some such so Dick/Tim/Damian/Duke/Jace whoever can be Batman forever is basically telling tomorrow's readers "y'all can have your '70s Bruce Wayne stories." I genuinely have to wonder how many of those readers are content going back and reading 40 year old stories while finding them compelling in the same ways they find modern ones. I wonder if the readers who have grown bored reading the classics today and want them to retire understand that they loved and grew up on the stories the generation before them were tired of and hoped would be retired?

    The hobby shouldn't cater to us old farts who are past our expiration date so much as refreshing the IP for new generations. You don't need to throw away Bruce, Clark or Diana to do so. You just need to tell stories with modern art and sensibilities using their core themes to make new generations of fans. It's literally how the company has survived. It's what people come to the medium for.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I honestly believe that's because he doesn't want to be Batman by this point.
    It is. Dick struggling with the expectation the world has that he take up the mantle while also knowing he's the only qualified person directly conflicting with his desire to be his own thing has great storytelling potential. If it was just another "I'm not good enough to be Batman but will be validated by the sixth issue" plot, it'd be run-of-the-mill. The story of someone excellent at their own thing being compelled to fill someone else's shoes because they're significant-- and being great at it-- at the cost of their own wishes has many layers to work with.

    If you look at the construct of Batman as an elderly relative, it's akin to Dick needing to quit his job to look after Batman and thus putting his life on hold while constantly feeling conflicted over his loyalty to Bruce and his desires to be Nightwing.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-08-2021 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #82

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    I always found it slightly insulting when DC assumes that older characters or showing the passage of time would alienate younger readers despite the fact that majority of the times they aren't even trying to appeal to younger readers but older middle aged readers like themselves. I grew up reading Superman/Batman: Generations, I was reading Amazing Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Girl in the early '00's with each series showing Peter Parker at a different stage of his life, Batman Beyond was on at the time and I even got to read old Earth 2 comics. Even now some of the favourite comics are stuff like Flash Vol. 2 and Goyer/Johns JSA which focuses heavily on the legacy, growth and the passage of time.

    Ideally, we would have one universe where Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman are all young, hip and modern and another universe where they are old and the younger heroes have taken over.

  8. #83
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Wrong. MCU Tony Stark IS -- or rather, WAS -- Robert Downey, Jr. They gave his Iron Man a satisfying, heroic conclusion, AND are proving that the MCU can continue without him. They're not rebooting the MCU or "find[ing] a new multiverse version of...Tony Stark" just because some disgruntled fans refuse to accept death can be permanent in the MCU.
    So, Iron Man will never ever get another film in our lifetimes?

    All the more reason this is such an awful, terrible idea.

    But I'm pretty sure in 10 to 20 years there'll be a reboot of Iron Man/Tony.

  9. #84
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Ideally, we would have one universe where Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman are all young, hip and modern and another universe where they are old and the younger heroes have taken over.
    This would work. Everyone can finally have their cake and eat it too.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I always found it slightly insulting when DC assumes that older characters or showing the passage of time would alienate younger readers despite the fact that majority of the times they aren't even trying to appeal to younger readers but older middle aged readers like themselves. I grew up reading Superman/Batman: Generations, I was reading Amazing Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Girl in the early '00's with each series showing Peter Parker at a different stage of his life, Batman Beyond was on at the time and I even got to read old Earth 2 comics. Even now some of the favourite comics are stuff like Flash Vol. 2 and Goyer/Johns JSA which focuses heavily on the legacy, growth and the passage of time.

    Ideally, we would have one universe where Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman are all young, hip and modern and another universe where they are old and the younger heroes have taken over.
    Yes! We could call the young-hero Earth, say, Earth 1, and the one with the older retired heroes mentoring the heroes now adopting their legacies Earth 2!

    Genius. If only someone had ever thought of such a thing.


  11. #86

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    -The MCU is not going to reboot anytime soon. They are just going to keep introducing new characters into existing continuing who will serve as jumping on points and audience surrogates while retiring and killing off older characters after they've lived out their story arcs.

    -There is going to be a new Iron Man or rather Iron Heart and her name is Riri. Her and Armour Wars will be the continuation of the IM franchise and at some point, Morgan Stark will be old enough to have stories centered around her.

    -*If* the MCU reboots, it's unlikely to really capture the magic that made the original run of films fun. I can see a JJ Abrams-type trying to reboot the MCU in the future but we will likely get something akin to Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and is unlikely to last as long as the MCU did. A lot of stars had to align just right for the MCU to be successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yes! We could call the young-hero Earth, say, Earth 1, and the one with the older retired heroes mentoring the heroes now adopting their legacies Earth 2!

    Genius. If only someone had ever thought of such a thing.

    Gee, if it happens I hope nobody blows it all up at some point.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    This would work. Everyone can finally have their cake and eat it too.
    No it wouldn't. We would do nothing but argue which is the true timeline.

  13. #88

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    Just like people did for Pre Crisis E1 & E2 or for Marvel 616 & MC2?

  14. #89
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    No it wouldn't. We would do nothing but argue which is the true timeline.
    Please, we're comic book fans - arguing is the icing on our cake!

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Please, we're comic book fans - arguing is the icing on our cake!
    Exactly! How can I enjoy being in the right, if [the other side] isn't so egregiously wrong?

    If not for tribalism, where will I get a smug sense of my own superiority to carry me through the rest of my boring day to day life?

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