Aging in the DC Universe

[Vakanai]

I don't think any fan is really concerned about anyone else's reading experiences beyond their own, it doesn't really matter which side of the debate (or any debate) they fall on. Fans are gonna fan, they want the **** they like and everything else is secondary.

But rigidly adhering to one strict continuity can create this problem, but when we see that even the mainstream audiences are able to embrace multiple versions of the same characters, it shouldn't have to be. Moving away from one shared universe model and just focusing on crafting good stories that can be placed in any era or continuity in these characters lives should be paramount. The Superman books can age up Clark and do whatever they want to do with Jon, but we can have other books with a younger Clark that can either be earlier in that same timeline or a different one altogether. Some of the best Superman stories (All Star and Whatever Happened...?) aren't even canon anyway, so canon doesn't have to be the end all be all for these characters. If it means better stand alone graphic novels and less mainline runs getting hijacked by dumbass crossovers, all the better.

When I was a kid and watching BTAS I understood that that Batman wasn't the same one in the Tim Burton movies or the old re-runs of Adam West. We aren't following one life story because these characters don't have one life story, they never have even have ad one in the comics. Let some versions of them go through story progression and age out to be replaced by successors whose stories we can follow, but it's be kind of stupid from a business perspective to retire the big name characters across the board.



Multiple continuities would allow for permanent death as well. I could get behind that

Barry never should have been brought back in the main line comics continuity, but that means he doesn't have to be off the table in other comics either.

I'm with you on this except for one thing - I don't think that there should even be a "mainline" any more. I think the long haul forever continuity needs to be ditched a bit.

[SiegePerilous02]

I give a model of how to create and push new characters to a wider audience beyond the meager existing market of comic book readers...and your argument is that somehow because the popular iconic characters will still be allowed to exist and not aged out that it's only inviting stagnation because no one can possibly have a new, unique, or different take on these guys?

Yes, wanting some ongoing versions where these characters age out and pass on the mantles is one thing, but sometimes it comes across as some wanting them gone altogether across the board. Which is another thing entirely, and is pretty ridiculous IMO.

[SiegePerilous02]

I give a model of how to create and push new characters to a wider audience beyond the meager existing market of comic book readers...and your argument is that somehow because the popular iconic characters will still be allowed to exist and not aged out that it's only inviting stagnation because no one can possibly have a new, unique, or different take on these guys?

Yes, wanting some ongoing versions where these characters age out and pass on the mantles is one thing, but sometimes it comes across as some wanting them gone altogether across the board. Which is another thing entirely, and is pretty ridiculous IMO.

[Alpha]

I'm 21 years old and I would love to have a 50 years Bruce Wayne with greying hair. How am I denying someone the ability to enjoy Batman?

[Vakanai]

I'm 21 years old and I would love to have a 50 years Bruce Wayne with greying hair. How am I denying someone the ability to enjoy Batman?

If the only version of Bruce is 50, or we stick to "only one continuity matters!!!!" thinking and that main continuity's Bruce is 50, and things continue to progress, he'll either have to retire or die eventually, and the only stories with Bruce as Batman will either be set in "the past!!!" which is unsatisfying to many fans, or be in "lesser off brand continuities!!!!" which is again unsatisfying. At some point Bruce is aged out to irrelevancy, and that'd deny his fans. The thing is, I'm 34 - when I'm 94 I still want to be able to enjoy mainstream and current Batman content where he's young, he's kicking ass, and he's Bruce Wayne.

[Dred]

I give a model of how to create and push new characters to a wider audience beyond the meager existing market of comic book readers...and your argument is that somehow because the popular iconic characters will still be allowed to exist and not aged out that it's only inviting stagnation because no one can possibly have a new, unique, or different take on these guys?

Certainly not unique, look at that main cast. Homogenous as hell. They brought back Barry Allen only to turn him to Bruce Wayne and you're asking me if they can be unique and original? The goal has never been those things. If the goal was to make unique and original stories then, yes, you would've done something different besides Bruce Wayne story #1652 last week.

Heck, we got two years of Dick Grayson as Batman and it was arguably the best Batman comics we'd gotten in as many decades. The Flash was at its best doing this, and at its worst undoing it. But you're right, all that really matters is what the current fans are majority fans of and hopefully those majority fans never go away since that is all that will be catered to.

Despite its squalor, the external media draws from the comics as a source. It'd have been nice to not only care about Batman and Superman for the last 30 years so there was a more divergent source to draw upon.

But I understand we are divergent on this point. As you said, you hope there will be Bruce Wayne comics ad infinitum and I'd rather there be more varied takes on "Batman" going forward. I always viewed superhero comics as modern day myths and feel like, much like classic mythologies, the stories were better for their many variations as times changed. There's hardly only one Loki or Bacchus, after all.

[Vakanai]

Certainly not unique, look at that main cast. Homogenous as hell. They brought back Barry Allen only to turn him to Bruce Wayne and you're asking me if they can be unique and original?

I meant unique stories told with these existing characters, because they're not going away ever.

Despite its squalor, the external media draws from the comics as a source. It'd have been nice to not only care about Batman and Superman for the last 30 years so there was a more divergent source to draw upon.

There's no time like the present - there's still ways to make more characters matter without aging away the current popular characters.

[Dred]

I don't think there is any room for the new characters. I mean maybe for Bat characters, but no one else has any space to create and expand outside of possible limited series. But the successful limited series are often derived from the ongoings, as well, and the limited series are even more dominated by Batman stuff than the main line. Iris is my favorite example because I'm invested in her but where would you tell stories with her? In The Flash, the book about Barry Allen who will never age because he's the iconic Flash we must tell stories about forever? How would you even get to a character like Iris II in a world where we were never allowed to move on from Barry, even if it was only temporary? Wally would've never aged, never lived his amazing stories, never would've been the foundation for this new idea.

And the characters will never "go away." There are literally thousands of Bruce Wayne stories already. I just think it might be interesting for Batman to not be Bruce Wayne for a while so we have some non-Bruce Wayne stories built out of the foundations of Bruce. Comics are pretty much the only medium that refuses to do that, too. Characters have ends in literature, movies, tv shows, radio plays, everything but comics. And maybe that is the unique selling point of comics, but it becomes odd when what makes you unique is your lack of uniqueness.

[Vakanai]

I don't think there is any room for the new characters. I mean maybe for Bat characters, but no one else has any space to create and expand outside of possible limited series. But the successful limited series are often derived from the ongoings, as well, and the limited series are even more dominated by Batman stuff than the main line. Iris is my favorite example because I'm invested in her but where would you tell stories with her? In The Flash, the book about Barry Allen who will never age because he's the iconic Flash we must tell stories about forever? How would you even get to a character like Iris II in a world where we were never allowed to move on from Barry, even if it was only temporary? Wally would've never aged, never lived his amazing stories, never would've been the foundation for this new idea.

And the characters will never "go away." There are literally thousands of Bruce Wayne stories already. I just think it might be interesting for Batman to not be Bruce Wayne for a while so we have some non-Bruce Wayne stories built out of the foundations of Bruce. Comics are pretty much the only medium that refuses to do that, too. Characters have ends in literature, movies, tv shows, radio plays, everything but comics. And maybe that is the unique selling point of comics, but it becomes odd when what makes you unique is your lack of uniqueness.

Again, this is going off the dwindling old monthly floppy model that's a dying market. Yeah, there's no room for new characters there. That's why we have to move away from that model at some point.

[Dred]

There isn't some other model that's funding stories to be told with these characters. And once you get rid of ongoings conceptually then it's a moot point because there's no ongoing narrative to put progression in anyhow. Characters that work better in serial nature don't really exist if you get rid of the serial nature.

But, honestly, that's a strawman. We have the comics that we have now. Neither you nor I can predict what potential future model comics will even have -- maybe it'll perfectly retain its serial nature in a purely digital format, who knows, but disregarding the discussion because you think the industry will be dead is not a real response.

[Vakanai]

There isn't some other model that's funding stories to be told with these characters. And once you get rid of ongoings conceptually then it's a moot point because there's no ongoing narrative to put progression in anyhow. Characters that work better in serial nature don't really exist if you get rid of the serial nature.

But, honestly, that's a strawman. We have the comics that we have now. Neither you nor I can predict what potential future model comics will even have -- maybe it'll perfectly retain its serial nature in a purely digital format, who knows, but disregarding the discussion because you think the industry will be dead is not a real response.

Fine - the comics that we have now, is a dwindling market where most of the consumers are aging, and the bulk of them won't give new characters a chance. Aging the heroes they buy out and replacing them with a bunch of legacies, will kill that market. DC wouldn't survive if it goes down that route of aging away the big guns.

[Dred]

The market is losing customers so its only options is to cater to a shrinking demographic? The Market is already dead, don't kill the market!

I mean given your fairly morbid prediction there wouldn't even be enough time to tell the story at this point. But, hey, what better time to try something new when it's all fucked anyhow?

[Vakanai]

The market is losing customers so its only options is to cater to a shrinking demographic? The Market is already dead, don't kill the market!

I mean given your fairly morbid prediction there wouldn't even be enough time to tell the story at this point. But, hey, what better time to try something new when it's all fucked anyhow?

Hey, this market is unsalvageable. My solution to that was move on to a better market away from the current direct market model. You called that a straw man. If you want an answer on how to keep a doomed and dying market going for as long as possible? Then yes, the market that won't accept new characters shouldn't move to new characters.

I don't think my prediction is morbid at all. I think moving away from the old direct market is a good and positive thing that'll allow more characters to thrive! If you think that the direct market is the best market long term and must be saved, well, good luck on that. But I don't see it ever turning into what you want it to be.

[Dred]

I agree with you, I just don't see why that also means Bruce Wayne has to be born in in the 2000s after the next inevitable reboot happens to reset his age and undo all character development the entre universe has...just to make sure he's 30something.

[Vakanai]

I agree with you, I just don't see why that also means Bruce Wayne has to be born in in the 2000s after the next inevitable reboot happens to reset his age and undo all character development the entre universe has...just to make sure he's 30something.

Because once you begin to establish a huge passage of time, it'll keep going, and it just means when it's impossible for him not to be old frail crotchety man who needs to retire before he breaks a hip, you'll have even more to reset.

Besides, a good well thought out reboot (aka the exact opposite of the Nu52) free of old continuity could pave the way for new classic stories to be told. Look at the stories we got once pre-Crisis continuity was ditched - Year One, The Long Halloween, Last Laugh, the Legends of the Dark Knight classic run. There's a possibility for a new and different spin on his origins that gives us unique stories that can't fit into that continuity.

And it's not like those stories are lost forever with a reboot. You can still buy pre-Crisis books after all.