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  1. #181
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I would love to have a time machine (not just for this purpose, BTW ) to go back to 1985 and show the DC management of that time what legacies and aging of characters had wrought. I'm not sure they would have been as enthusiastic about it after seeing all of the fan squabbling it created. Yes, a big event was still needed to keep DC afloat and there had to be a shakeup to include more POC characters (not to mention excising certain stories that just didn't work anymore), but keeping the Multiverse would have kept legacies and character aging on Earth-2 (as was evident during the Bronze Age).
    Yeah. Or at least convinced them to be harder on reboots when they do them instead of these half assed soft reboots. Sometimes you need a hard reset and start from the beginning - and agree to bring nothing of the old continuity back.

  2. #182
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    See, this is what aging up actually can bring. We really should be moving into a Flash status quo that would've had a korean female as The Flash. The Flash even has a unisex superhero name to make it work! It's a shame that dithering about the same age group, and in other cases retconning back to it, has caused this absurd level of stagnancy and lack of representation.
    Or they could just make a brand new hero who is a Korean American female and just push her. The notion that some heroes are at the top is really just a old comic book fanboy thing after the MCU.

  3. #183
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We could ditch a complicated shared universe altogether and just let the Flash series show multiple generations progressing, and the Batman corner (or Superman, or Wonder Woman) is no longer obligated to even pretend to give a shit.
    I would be fine with this, honestly. Embrace the multiverse - some characters where legacy is a bigger deal can be shunted off to "growing old" earth, and the heroes who are always going to be the same people (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman) don't have to deal with it. Maybe give that growing old earth aging clones of those heroes who shouldn't age. Call it an Earth 2.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Or they could just make a brand new hero who is a Korean American female and just push her. The notion that some heroes are at the top is really just a old comic book fanboy thing after the MCU.
    Iris is a new character. I didn't say change Barry into a Korean Woman. I said push Iris West II for a myriad of awesome reasons, not the least of which is her relation and connections to Barry and Wally et al.

    Also you talk like there's an infinite number of comics DC can put out to give everyone representation. Yeah just make a new character, give her a new comic, annnnnd...which comic you cancelling? The Flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't think they've chosen this path outside of Didio's preference for Barry and Hal over Wally and John, or screwing over a few Teen Titans members. I think the rest is just the invisible hand of the market, supply and demand. If one character is popular, you don't try and build up other characters to be as popular - you sell the character people are buying.
    This sounds like the worst strategy ever. It's, like, the exact idea the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" idiom was made for.

    You give people what they're buying but also try to create more things they want to buy. Especially in a media market. You don't just run re-runs of Saturday Night Live because it was pulling in the most viewers, you kind of want to make other shows.

    I can't believe you actually believe what you said in this post. Thinking like you do they would've literally never even made Barry Allen or Hal Jordan because, well, Flash and GL didn't sell just keep making Superman comics.
    Last edited by Dred; 05-16-2021 at 06:21 PM.

  5. #185
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    When you think about it, the clock didn't truly start ticking in the DC Universe until DC allowed Robin to grow up from the Boy Wonder to the Teen Wonder, and then to the young adult Nightwing. We saw Tim Drake go from middle school to late high school/college-age, and Batman's been active long enough to have a son in the Teen Titans. It's almost as if you can measure the broader DC timeline exclusively through the succession of Robins, which is kinda cool. At the very least, even in the most conservative view, Batman has been operating for a bare minimum of a decade and a half. Towards the end of the pre-Flashpoint days when Bruce and Dick were both Batman, they actually did make a few sparse references to Bruce's increasing age, which was a nice touch.

  6. #186
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Iris is a new character. I didn't say change Barry into a Korean Woman. I said push Iris West II for a myriad of awesome reasons, not the least of which is her relation and connections to Barry and Wally et al.
    Ah, that wasn't clear - I don't really keep up with the Flash stuff.
    Still, could turn her into a Flash Nightwing equivalent.

    Also you talk like there's an infinite number of comics DC can put out to give everyone representation. Yeah just make a new character, give her a new comic, annnnnd...which comic you cancelling? The Flash?
    Don't put words in my mouth - I never said to just give new characters their own ongoing comic. That'll never work. You attach them to another hero's family - Superman's, Batman's, Wonder Woman's. You put them on team books like Titans and Outsiders. You give them their own mini-series and OGNs and one-offs. Give them a YA or Kids OGN. Then you put them into cartoons like Harley Quinn and Young Justice. Give them a guest episode on one of the CW shows. Make them a playable character in one of the big DC videogames. Give them a short that goes along with one of the animated movies. Have them co-star in an animated movie. Then you get them a part in a movie if not their own movie.

    This belief that it's an ongoing floppy or nothing is outdated. The market is changing, the world is changing. You can't expect to push for diversity while also sticking to the old and stagnant direct comic book market. Times aren't just changing for diversity, they're also changing in how these heroes actually are sold. You're demanding new life to be pumped into a market that in all likelihood will will be dead in 20 years. If new heroes are going to stand a chance, you can't just ask for them to be put in a book that'll struggle in a diminishing market to make $20,000 and even fewer readers.

    This sounds like the worst strategy ever. It's, like, the exact idea the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" idiom was made for.
    I never said it was smart or good, I only said it was simple capitalism.

    You give people what they're buying but also try to create more things they want to buy. Especially in a media market. You don't just run re-runs of Saturday Night Live because it was pulling in the most viewers, you kind of want to make other shows.
    That'd be nice yes. I'm not arguing against that - I'm just saying why what happened, happened. Businesses are notorious for failing at long term planning for short term profit. It's not DC, or WB, or AT&T - it's systemic to modern capitalism at this point in time.

    I can't believe you actually believe what you said in this post. Thinking like you do they would've literally never even made Barry Allen or Hal Jordan because, well, Flash and GL didn't sell just keep making Superman comics.
    I can't believe you actually believe that I believe in this as a fundamental principle of how things should be done - I only believe in this as the flawed way things are done now. Modern capitalism is dumber than it was back in the Silver Age.


    You think I'm arguing this is a good thing, or how it should be, when I've said no such thing. I'm just saying, you're blaming the wrong boogeymen. This is all caused by short sighted business cultures that trade long term planning for short term gains.

  7. #187
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    When you think about it, the clock didn't truly start ticking in the DC Universe until DC allowed Robin to grow up from the Boy Wonder to the Teen Wonder, and then to the young adult Nightwing. We saw Tim Drake go from middle school to late high school/college-age, and Batman's been active long enough to have a son in the Teen Titans. It's almost as if you can measure the broader DC timeline exclusively through the succession of Robins, which is kinda cool. At the very least, even in the most conservative view, Batman has been operating for a bare minimum of a decade and a half. Towards the end of the pre-Flashpoint days when Bruce and Dick were both Batman, they actually did make a few sparse references to Bruce's increasing age, which was a nice touch.
    This is one of the reasons why I hate the Robins and the ever growing and expanding Bat-family...

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Ah, that wasn't clear - I don't really keep up with the Flash stuff.
    Still, could turn her into a Flash Nightwing equivalent.



    Don't put words in my mouth - I never said to just give new characters their own ongoing comic. That'll never work. You attach them to another hero's family - Superman's, Batman's, Wonder Woman's. You put them on team books like Titans and Outsiders. You give them their own mini-series and OGNs and one-offs. Give them a YA or Kids OGN. Then you put them into cartoons like Harley Quinn and Young Justice. Give them a guest episode on one of the CW shows. Make them a playable character in one of the big DC videogames. Give them a short that goes along with one of the animated movies. Have them co-star in an animated movie. Then you get them a part in a movie if not their own movie.

    This belief that it's an ongoing floppy or nothing is outdated. The market is changing, the world is changing. You can't expect to push for diversity while also sticking to the old and stagnant direct comic book market. Times aren't just changing for diversity, they're also changing in how these heroes actually are sold. You're demanding new life to be pumped into a market that in all likelihood will will be dead in 20 years. If new heroes are going to stand a chance, you can't just ask for them to be put in a book that'll struggle in a diminishing market to make $20,000 and even fewer readers.



    I never said it was smart or good, I only said it was simple capitalism.



    That'd be nice yes. I'm not arguing against that - I'm just saying why what happened, happened. Businesses are notorious for failing at long term planning for short term profit. It's not DC, or WB, or AT&T - it's systemic to modern capitalism at this point in time.



    I can't believe you actually believe that I believe in this as a fundamental principle of how things should be done - I only believe in this as the flawed way things are done now. Modern capitalism is dumber than it was back in the Silver Age.


    You think I'm arguing this is a good thing, or how it should be, when I've said no such thing. I'm just saying, you're blaming the wrong boogeymen. This is all caused by short sighted business cultures that trade long term planning for short term gains.
    See we actually agree on it being shortsighted mismanagement of the company. It just seems like you also like that that was how it was run so long as it keeps certain characters in the spotlight ad infinitum, so I'm getting mixed messages here.

    If Iris grows up Barry is old and should probably move on? Same with Wally? That's kind of the idea. She doesn't need a new name, especially in The Flash. It's very significantly about passing on the mantle.

  9. #189
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    This is one of the reasons why I hate the Robins and the ever growing and expanding Bat-family...
    I honestly feel that Batman didn't need a new Robin after Dick. It's done more for marketing and brand purposes than something Bruce's character needed or anything that makes him interesting. It's actually made him look worse, especially after Jason died.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I honestly feel that Batman didn't need a new Robin after Dick. It's done more for marketing and brand purposes than something Bruce's character needed or anything that makes him interesting. It's actually made him look worse, especially after Jason died.
    Yeah, Batman's too old. He should have his Robin replace him by now.

  11. #191
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    See we actually agree on it being shortsighted mismanagement of the company. It just seems like you also like that that was how it was run so long as it keeps certain characters in the spotlight ad infinitum, so I'm getting mixed messages here.
    Not really mixed - some popular characters were always going to be in the spotlight. It's not that I don't mind it so much as I disagree that they'd have not been in the spotlight even if DC had the forethought to think ahead and make sure other characters remained viable.

    If Iris grows up Barry is old and should probably move on? Same with Wally? That's kind of the idea. She doesn't need a new name, especially in The Flash. It's very significantly about passing on the mantle.
    Not really - that's the idea you want, but not everyone is sold on the legacy aspect and replacing the characters they've loved for decades.

  12. #192
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I honestly feel that Batman didn't need a new Robin after Dick. It's done more for marketing and brand purposes than something Bruce's character needed or anything that makes him interesting. It's actually made him look worse, especially after Jason died.
    This, yes, true. At the very least Jason should have been the last Robin in continuity. But sadly DC keeps adding more and more of them...

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Yeah, Batman's too old. He should have his Robin replace him by now.
    Or they should reboot a few needless Robins to youthen Bruce back up again.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    When you think about it, the clock didn't truly start ticking in the DC Universe until DC allowed Robin to grow up from the Boy Wonder to the Teen Wonder, and then to the young adult Nightwing. We saw Tim Drake go from middle school to late high school/college-age, and Batman's been active long enough to have a son in the Teen Titans. It's almost as if you can measure the broader DC timeline exclusively through the succession of Robins, which is kinda cool. At the very least, even in the most conservative view, Batman has been operating for a bare minimum of a decade and a half. Towards the end of the pre-Flashpoint days when Bruce and Dick were both Batman, they actually did make a few sparse references to Bruce's increasing age, which was a nice touch.
    Honestly, by the time of Black Mirror, which was one of the last big pre-Flashpoint Batman arcs, there's no way around the fact that it had been 20 years or so since Year One, given the age of James Jr.

    And yeah, Dick going to college was the first real sign of the passage of time in the DC Universe. If we assume that Dick was meant to be around 10-12 when he became Robin, and he went to college at around 17-18, then it was pretty inevitable that Batman had been around for at least 5-7 years.

    I mean, as far back as the original Red Hood story in 1951, you had a reference to Batman having been around at least 10 years, since his first encounter with the Red Hood happened 10 years before that story. But that was a one-off reference that could be ignored. Dick being in his late teens meant that the passage of time couldn't be brushed off anymore but was now a permanent fixture.
    Last edited by bat39; 05-16-2021 at 11:05 PM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Honestly, by the time of Black Mirror, which was one of the last big pre-Flashpoint Batman arcs, there's no way around the fact that it had been 20 years or so since Year One, given the age of James Jr.
    James Jr. in Black Mirror makes anyway no sense.

    He is iirc in the flashbacks shown to be only a few years younger than Barbara, originally Barbara was about 13 years older than him.

    Based on Batman Year One and Batman Year There it is also pretty clear that he can't be older than Tim Drake.

    And there are iirc stories around the Wedding of Gorden with Sarah Essen that show him iirc to be about 10 years old.

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