Marvel Studios Phase 4 special look

[Castle]

Yes, Wandavision was okay, but dragged on a little too long, they have done away with a couple of episodes.
The Marvel Hulu series were great because Kevin Feige didn’t control the content of those shows.
Marvel Hulu was live action comic books.
Feige shows and movies are live action Saturday morning cartoons.

Ummmmm, have Saturday morning cartoons changed much? I am not into them anymore but when I was a kid, many Saturday morning cartoons were pretty good and had stories beyond Feige stories like Batman TAS and X-Men TAS.

I haven't seen the Disney+ shows, but anything falling below the mediocrity of the CW shows is a truly frightening prospect indeed...

To be fair, Many CW Shows first seasons tend to be good. Wandavision I would say, tried to be ambitious but the problem with the show is that the show was held back by Disney tv story limits from reaching the potential we know those type of shows could reach. Wandavsion is the show Legion would have been if it was deeply somewhat part of the MCU.

That been said, at least with Wandavsion. it has been officially confirmed there will not be a season 2, so I think Fiege and MCU know when to stop with their shows regardless of how they are saying it will tie into Phase 4/ Dr Strange 2 or something. CW shows just goes on and on and on with each season getting worse than the last.

[Vakanai]

Ummmmm, have Saturday morning cartoons changed much? I am not into them anymore but when I was a kid, many Saturday morning cartoons were pretty good and had stories beyond Feige stories like Batman TAS and X-Men TAS.

They've changed loads - Saturday morning cartoons went from a thing that existed to a thing that doesn't exist anymore! Kids now watch all their cartoons on Disney/DisneyXD/Nickelodeon, or whenever on Netflix or elsewhere online. Saturdays being a thing where a block of cartoons would premiere hasn't been a thing in over a decade. A new generation of kids won't get the reference to Saturday morning cartoons from personal history, just from hearing older generations mentioning it.

[WebLurker]

Ummmmm, have Saturday morning cartoons changed much?

They're certainly getting more sophisticated than they used to be (although TV in general moved away from episodic storytelling).

I am not into them anymore but when I was a kid, many Saturday morning cartoons were pretty good and had stories beyond Feige stories like Batman TAS and X-Men TAS.

Batman was a rare bird. From what I've seen, we evolved beyond the old X-Men cartoon ages ago, but I am admittedly more familiar with the Evolution incarnation (why don't we talk about that one anymore anyways?). Frankly, I would put certain Marvel Studios films over the Saturday morning crowd (certainly the pre-modern era cartoons), but I'd say case-by-case basis both ways. I mean, Star Wars animation has certainly been working on a level comparable to what we'd expect from their cinematic outings (which is the style that Marvel Studios is shooting for).

[luprki]

First, "dragging on"? Have you seen any recent season of the Flash?
And do you mean the Netflix Marvel like Daredevil? Those were pretty good.

Oops, I meant Netflix Marvel, not Hulu.

Ummmmm, have Saturday morning cartoons changed much? I am not into them anymore but when I was a kid, many Saturday morning cartoons were pretty good and had stories beyond Feige stories like Batman TAS and X-Men TAS.

That’s a good point, I have to admit, even the Saturday morning cartoons are more sophisticated than the Feige stuff.

[Username taken]

They've changed loads - Saturday morning cartoons went from a thing that existed to a thing that doesn't exist anymore! Kids now watch all their cartoons on Disney/DisneyXD/Nickelodeon, or whenever on Netflix or elsewhere online. Saturdays being a thing where a block of cartoons would premiere hasn't been a thing in over a decade. A new generation of kids won't get the reference to Saturday morning cartoons from personal history, just from hearing older generations mentioning it.

Exactly.

I was about to mention that Saturday morning cartoons that we in the older generation grew up on don’t exist anymore.

There are channels now that pretty much pump out cartoons around the clock.

[Castle]

They're certainly getting more sophisticated than they used to be (although TV in general moved away from episodic storytelling).

This will be more DC right? or some dubbed english Japanese anime since Marvel does not really make cartoons. at least not cartoons worth mentioning. I know there is a spiderman XD cartoon and many spiderman fans cant stand it because it was just terribly bad made for kids only.

I dont watch any Saturday morning cartoons anymore for superheroes, I only watch DC animated movies. So I rather just keep my limited ignorance about what they are now like in 2021.

Batman was a rare bird. From what I've seen, we evolved beyond the old X-Men cartoon ages ago, but I am admittedly more familiar with the Evolution incarnation (why don't we talk about that one anymore anyways?). Frankly, I would put certain Marvel Studios films over the Saturday morning crowd (certainly the pre-modern era cartoons), but I'd say case-by-case basis both ways. I mean, Star Wars animation has certainly been working on a level comparable to what we'd expect from their cinematic outings (which is the style that Marvel Studios is shooting for).

Actually both for marvel and dc were rare birds, though not that rare for DC. Since DC has done better stuff than Batman TAS. I know this is a hard one for some, dealing with the issue that an xmen Saturday morning cartoon told more adult stories than Fiege movies, but I cannot change history to make some feel better. marvel was just very different at that time in the 1990s, back then, as they cared more about incorporating more adult stories in their live action Saturday morning cartoons, a rule Disney no longer allows . this was the same also with Spiderman TAS, reason he started off in college than high school in TAS. Also what is this thing about moving on. it should be growing from not moving on.If you are more familiar with evolution, that is fine, however it was evolution that evolved more to xmen tas by season 3 and 4.

I mean, Star Wars animation has certainly been working on a level comparable to what we'd expect from their cinematic outings (which is the style that Marvel Studios is shooting for).

The clone wars was good but this was long before they disney bought star wars . So I dont see how that matters here. most of clone wars is still called old star wars.

Oops, I meant Netflix Marvel, not Hulu.

Both Netflix and Hulu Daredevil, Runsway Legion and Luke Cage.

That’s a good point, I have to admit, even the Saturday morning cartoons are more sophisticated than the Feige stuff.

Easy to explain why. This is how Fiege does it.

https://br.ign.com/kevin-feige/3908/...funny-not-dark


This is how Saturday morning cartoons did it.

http://cinema-crazed.com/blog/2019/0...-the-nineties/

When you have two different mindsets, there will be two different outcomes. it's a one law chess rule.

Wandavsion did not need, episode 1 and 2. Evan Peters, or the Sitcom stuff. The show also could have done better with some technical parts. But one good thing came out of the show, Since Marvel never had the rights to the xmen females like Jean, Storm or Rogue, Scarlet Witch was always by a long run. the best female character they had and she never did much in the movies, so this show was a very good compensation for her.

My advice to Feige for phase 4 and 5. Scarlet Witch not Captain Marvel needs to be the main leading female in the MCU.

[luprki]

Easy to explain why. This is how Fiege does it.

https://br.ign.com/kevin-feige/3908/...funny-not-dark

The MCU used to be dark until Disney and Feige gained control.

[WebLurker]

This will be more DC right? or some dubbed english Japanese anime since Marvel does not really make cartoons. at least not cartoons worth mentioning. I know there is a spiderman XD cartoon and many spiderman fans cant stand it because it was just terribly bad made for kids only.

I'm talking animation as a whole. I mean, compare some of the modern reboots of Transformers and TMNT to the original '80s shows, if you want to see what I mean.

I dont watch any Saturday morning cartoons anymore for superheroes, I only watch DC animated movies. So I rather just keep my limited ignorance about what they are now like in 2021.

You should try the 2012 TMNT show. I've seen a few of the DC movies (did like Batman: Hush, Justice League vs The Fatal Five, and Batman vs Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles), but I kinda think they skimp on the animation budget a bit. Do want to see the upcoming Long Halloween movie, though.

Actually both for marvel and dc were rare birds, though not that rare for DC.

Frankly, I think the Batman cartoon shows just how badly X-Men aged, given that they were of the same era. Heck, Gargoyles came out just a few years later and was lightyears ahead of where X-Men was.

Since DC has done better stuff than Batman TAS.

Like what? (Genuinely curious.)

I know this is a hard one for some, dealing with the issue that an xmen Saturday morning cartoon told more adult stories than Fiege movies, but I cannot change history to make some feel better.

Neither can I change the fact that a good execution of something always beats out the grand intentions of something that can't live up to those intentions.

marvel was just very different at that time in the 1990s, back then, as they cared more about incorporating more adult stories in their live action Saturday morning cartoons, a rule Disney no longer allows . this was the same also with Spiderman TAS, reason he started off in college than high school in TAS.

And yet two of the best installments in the Spider-Man franchise were about the high school years (Ultimate and the Spectacular cartoon). Neither is inherently better or lends itself to more "adult" stories; it's all in the execution. (Heck, all it really proves is how versatile the character is that you can do him as a teenager or an adult and get good co

Also what is this thing about moving on. it should be growing from not moving on.If you are more familiar with evolution, that is fine, however it was evolution that evolved more to xmen tas by season 3 and 4.

Let's be frank, the old X-Men cartoon had crappy animation that didn't even live up to its peers (e.g. Batman, Gargoyles) and was not one for nuanced writing. It's of historical importance to the franchise (even if the Evolution cartoon impacted the franchise more) and a stepping stone. An effort for its time and certainly something more then a toy commercial (although, as TMNT shows, a toy commercial can still have a fun factor that lets it last), but it's hardly the gold standard to live up to. TV animation has gotten better and we're seeing more cartoons with higher levels of sophistication in the writing and drawing in a wider audience then just the kids. So, yes, it is move beyond X-Men and that should be a good thing that we have; I mean, art evolves and we should be hoping that future animation projects improve and make better things then the current material.

The clone wars was good but this was long before they disney bought star wars . So I dont see how that matters here. most of clone wars is still called old star wars.

Since I was talking about animation as a whole, it still matters. Even if you want to look post-Disney, Rebels is a think that's of the same mold as The Clone Wars.

[Brian B]

...As great as an artist he is, Scorsese does not know much about other film genres.

Another topic for different day, bit the idea that super hero movies are all about toys is a big fat lie as proven by many other comic films from both DC/Marvel though not MCU, I do think MCU movies for so long has focused too much on this narrative that it is all about toys that does not seem to be working artistically anymore or just never worked at all once the cloud around their connection movies charm wore off, but maybe few of their phase 4 movies can grow and move away from that. they would have too if they want their xmen and blade films to succeed.

The Big Two’s superhero movies are ALL about the toys. See X-Men, Spider-Man and FF franchises and fight over those IPs for details.

I think Scorsese’s a great enough artist with more than enough years of experience in the industry. He understands enough that his opinion cannot be easily dismissed, even if RDJr felt a bit offended. Scorsese doesn’t need to “understand” the superhero, tent-pole franchise more than he already does to understand the economics of it and the artistry of it. Indeed, I think he understands the economic effects it has had on the film-making industry quite well.

[Brian B]

The MCU used to be dark until Disney and Feige gained control.

Excluding Netflix Marvel which was Perlmutter’s and Loeb’s — and I think Loeb deserves massively big kudos for making those Netflix series as good as they were — the MCU always has some humor in those movies, even when dark. Look at Thanos and Infinity War. There were still plenty of LOLs in that movie. That’s just the house MCU style.

[Castle]

I'm talking animation as a whole. I mean, compare some of the modern reboots of Transformers and TMNT to the original '80s shows, if you want to see what I mean.

As I said, I dont watch them in 2021 but what I can say is I would trust some of them are now sophisticated, though from what I saw last with marvel cartoons, they don't seem to qualify.

Frankly, I think the Batman cartoon shows just how badly X-Men aged, given that they were of the same era. Heck, Gargoyles came out just a few years later and was lightyears ahead of where X-Men was.

What you are saying shows otherwise. what also seem to be a future last ditch effort, to savage what may become of Phase 4 and beyond with MCU Xmen. I don't think this will help though? Let me give you an objective metrics of how in-depth X-Men TAS was that is still relevant today far beyond the realms of comic book stuff in 2021. Since a lot of adults who are now of age feel differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu98gITAnhs&t=95s

Also even for many who were solely fox films defenders, they would be the first to admit that the best interpretation of xmen stories was the cartoons and this are some staunch fox film defenders, that will tell you X3 was 100% great and would always point out the hard hitting mature gritter films like Logan or DOFP, films MCU dare not dare to try doing, they will still tell you the xmen tas Saturday morning cartoon were above all those films. So I am just trying to give you the high standard that show was held by, in the marvel universe and beyond. Additionally because of the nature of xmen stories, the blunt social commentary and brash themes was more openly outhere than Batman TAS. so any claim of ageing badly, especially now at a time anything comic book stuff is dismissed as theme parks or just a means to sell toys.

[QUOTE]

Let's be frank, the old X-Men cartoon had crappy animation that didn't even live up to its peers (e.g. Batman, Gargoyles) and was not one for nuanced writing. It's of historical importance to the franchise (even if the Evolution cartoon impacted the franchise more) and a stepping stone. An effort for its time and certainly something more then a toy commercial (although, as TMNT shows, a toy commercial can still have a fun factor that lets it last), but it's hardly the gold standard to live up to. TV animation has gotten better and we're seeing more cartoons with higher levels of sophistication in the writing and drawing in a wider audience then just the kids. So, yes, it is move beyond X-Men and that should be a good thing that we have; I mean, art evolves and we should be hoping that future animation projects improve and make better things then the current material.

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-animated-s...h-anniversary/
The X-Men animated series debuted 25 years ago today, and stands as a game-changer that brought legions of fans to comic books.

So to be indeed frank, saying the series did not live up to his peers, would be your own personal MCU POV opinion, it is not based on any fair objective artistic credential as the artistic credential proves the opposite. the series was a game changer among a 3's of game changers. when the series was first pitched, marvel in truth fought the more complex thoughtful minded story telling. In fact this is one era, it did better than Batman TAS, because the series gave more forces to human vs mutant conflict that was always very grey and not black and white which added to complex story telling unlike Batman though complex in a different way was more focused on Batman as a good person locking up bad criminals. though done in a very serious toned way with Batman.Also just to highlight the direct good comparison with Batman TAS and X-MEN
https://decider.com/2017/10/31/x-men...nniversary/TAS[B][I]
[B][I]


''The super-cartoons of the ’70s and ’80s presented tidily defeated villains, one per episode. That was still the case in the ’90s, as evidenced by X-Men’s peer Batman: The Animated Series. Debuting just under two months earlier, the deeply noir Batman: TAS elevated the Saturday morning cartoon into a cinematic experience. With instantly recognizable character designs and a palpable, moody atmosphere, Batman is a masterpiece. But while it pushed boundaries for writing and animation, it played it safe when it came to serialization. You could miss an episode of Batman, as pretty much every episode ended with the villain in Commissioner Gordon’s hands and Batman safely brooding in the Batcave. Superhero cartoons, despite leaping forth from the heavily-serialized pages of Marvel and DC comics, never attempted to mimic their source material’s storytelling structure.X-Men supervising producer Will Meugniot told Decider via email that the minds behind Marvel’s mutant show wanted to do something different. “Our goal was to emulate the experience of reading the actual comics, rather than delivering a dumbed down version as had been done in the past by shows like Super Friends and Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, and that necessitated more complex stories with drawn out character arcs.”

End quote of factual evidence.

So there is the confirmation of some of the differences with batman and xmen tas. just so you know that sterilised story telling tended to be more nuanced, batman tas worked as more stand alone episode. also I love how the creator of TAS, used the word of not dumbing the cartoon because the comics were not dumb down. Also I have pointed earlier before I even read the article fully, about how the villain and heroes worked in batman tas, with the villains indeed ending up with batman giving them to Gordan, X-MEN TAS tales was fare more complex than locking bad guys up at the end of all the series. this is also why that said more complex stories with drawn out character arcs.

Additionally, X-Men evolution though great in its own right and was acclaimed was still Under X-MEN TAS. There has hardly been any comic TV historian that has ranked evolution above TAS. saying evolution had more impact would be like saying A Different world had more impact than The Cosby show.

Honestly, I dont get all the faux narrative and the attempt to rewrite xmen tas history,LOL. Although I know the likely future to why because these are the same people who are also saying light hearted action driven comedy xmen films would work well and even better than the other films and X-MEN TAS had already obliterated that narrative. however I still think you should wait a bit. Let MCU light hearted action driven comedy XMEN come out in phase 4 or phase 5 or whatever and let us get the overall official confirmation again that X-MEN TAS is still and always will remain the best interpretation of the X-Men comics done on screen since I agree more with Luprki when he says a Saturday morning cartoon show is still going to be more sophisticated than the Fiege X-MEN movies and ironically, no other series would be more equipped to prove this right than X-MEN TAS.

[Castle]

The Big Two’s superhero movies are ALL about the toys. See X-Men, Spider-Man and FF franchises and fight over those IPs for details.

I think Scorsese’s a great enough artist with more than enough years of experience in the industry. He understands enough that his opinion cannot be easily dismissed, even if RDJr felt a bit offended. Scorsese doesn’t need to “understand” the superhero, tent-pole franchise more than he already does to understand the economics of it and the artistry of it. Indeed, I think he understands the economic effects it has had on the film-making industry quite well.

Superhero story telling's has moved beyond just toys. it has been that way post World War 2. it is only disney and mcu movies that takes the toy aspect so seriously that it does dictate how their story telling in the movies would go in direction. this was not a factor in Bryan Singer or Nolan X-MEN and Batman films and not even Sam Raimi Spiderman films, where although the toy merchandise based off the movies were pushing Spiderman revenues under sony past a billion. Raimi did look at Spiderman beyond the toy angle. I have seen the Eternals toys line that has already started getting heavy marketing.

https://mcu-initiative.com/eternals-...toy-packaging/
Eternals Villain Leaked With Toy Packaging

These toys have.... has gotten so powerful that they can even spoil plot points the movie. sure. okay but I don't remember comic films post Batman and Robin going this far with toys. However can I remind you when the war between marvel and fox was on and marvel chose not to make any toys for the newer xmen films like First Class and DOFP, you think it was a blessing in disguise? see those films got more appreciation for the mature drama driven comic films they are because there was no toys to distract or push the false narrative, it is just about action figures.

I am sorry but the toy thing does not hold much water when you think the how far the genre has evolve in real truth.

[Noodle]

End quote of factual evidence.

Factual evidence of what they intended. Intent and execution are two completely different things.

And before you post a bunch of Youtube videos "proving" me wrong, your interpretation of clips doesn't make them factual, nor does the opinions of random Youtube creators. All it does is show your/their opinions. Just as it is for the people that view different than your opinion.

[Castle]

Factual evidence of what they intended. Intent and execution are two completely different things.
.

I wont worry much, it was intended well and executed well. The artistic reception does not lie even after almost 3O years. the same way MCU movies are ''praised'' for their light fun and humour, was the same way TAS was praised for telling compelling adult serious driven story for a Saturday morning television that made Kids see the world differently.

And before you post a bunch of Youtube videos "proving" me wrong, your interpretation of clips doesn't make them factual, nor does the opinions of random Youtube creators. All it does is show your/their opinions. Just as it is for the people that view different than your opinion

factual= tends to be the actual scenes and screenplay written to read or see or allowed or not allowed by the studio.

Objective opinions= mostly logical and sound explanation of the obvious actual scenes and screenplay.

I don't usually post videos of fan fictions or fan made cartoons of movies/tv or just make up things and tell people this are the facts of the real movies or cartoons. that would be very dishonest and also trolling, and that is not my style.

[Noodle]

it was intended well and executed well.

In your opinion. So, again, it wasn't "factual."

factual= tends to be the actual scenes and screenplay written to read or see or allowed or not allowed by the studio.

No, the scenes don't make it "factual" because how people view and interpret those scenes are opinion. All those clips show is what was aired. The quality of those clips are subjective.

Objective opinions= mostly logical and sound explanation of the obvious actual scenes and screenplay.

Which you interject with your views of those clips, making them subjective.

But, then again, we've already established you don't know what objectivity actually is despite using it ad nauseam.