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  1. #1
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    Default Omni Man (Invincible TV) vs various foes

    1) Vs. Apollo and Midnighter (Wildstorm)
    2) Vs all Superpowered Individuals from The Boys TV show
    3) Vs. Superman (Man of Steel)
    4) Vs. Immortal Hulk (Comics) and Juggernaut (Breaker of Stone)
    5) Vs. Kenshiro (FoTNS)
    6) Vs. Karas (Karas anime)
    7) Vs Thanos with inifinity gauntlet and gems (MCU)
    8) Vs Goku (As of the original Dragonball only)
    9) Vs Storm (comics)
    10)Vs Smallville Clark
    11)Captain Mar-Vell (Marvel comics)
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    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Fight 9 is a stomp, lol.

    Storm has no business here.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    1) Vs. Apollo and Midnighter (Wildstorm)--Apollo is pretty weak sauce as far as Supermen go, I think the couple loses.
    2) Vs all Superpowered Individuals from The Boys TV show-- From what I hear, Omniman sweeps.
    3) Vs. Superman (Man of Steel)-- Supes might lose if you limit this to JUST MoS, but will probably crush with later movie feats.
    4) Vs. Immortal Hulk (Comics) and Juggernaut (Breaker of Stone)-- The former can be space tossed. I don't think the latter can be and therefore wins.
    5) Vs. Kenshiro (FoTNS)-- Kenshiro, from what I hear.
    6) Vs. Karas (Karas anime)-- Dunno.
    7) Vs Thanos with inifinity gauntlet and gems (MCU) Thanos gets blitzed.
    8) Vs Goku (As of the original Dragonball only) Duuno
    9) Vs Storm (comics) Blitzed.
    10)Vs Smallville Clark This time Nolan gets blitzed
    11)Captain Mar-Vell (Marvel comics) Duuno

  4. #4
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    1) Vs. Apollo and Midnighter (Wildstorm) - So we have two weak-sauce Supermen, basically. Midnighter wonders why he is here. I've read Invincible far more recently, so it could be recency bias, but I'd lean towards him against Apollo.

    2) Vs all Superpowered Individuals from The Boys TV show - Easy sweep for Nolan. He might be fast enough to blitz even A-train, he's certainly fast enough to blitz everyone else, and he's one-shotting all of them (at least, by feats we have).

    3) Vs. Superman (Man of Steel) - Just MoS? No magic sun re-heals or ghost dad pep talks? Yeah, Nolan blitzes and can definitely hurt Clark.

    4) Vs. Immortal Hulk (Comics) and Juggernaut (Breaker of Stone) - Hulk is floating in space before he knows what's going on. Juggy just keeps on coming back. Nolan can get tired eventually, Juggy can't, and Juggy definitely hits hard enough to crush some Vitrulmite skull. Could be a ridiculously long fight, but Juggy eventually wins.

    5) Vs. Kenshiro (FoTNS) - Ken's way too fast and has too many ways to bypass durability and soak. Nolan dies.

    6) Vs. Karas (Karas anime) - No clue

    7) Vs Thanos with inifinity gauntlet and gems (MCU) - Nolan blitzes for the win, I would say. If Thanos gets any chance at all to act, he clearly ends Nolan casually, but he shouldn't.

    8) Vs Goku (As of the original Dragonball only) - Even end-of-DB Goku isn't beating Nolan. Nolan should still be somewhat faster, and hits hard enough to destroy. He's also got a huge mobility edge, and better soak.

    9) Vs Storm (comics) - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA she has no business being anywhere near Nolan. She's a very dead mutant.

    10)Vs Smallville Clark - HAHAHAHAHA in the other direction. Yes, Smallville Clark casually blitzes. But even if he didn't, Nolan can't hurt him at all - Clark could full-on "meditating Jiren" the guy until he breaks his fists. Clark casually moves a planet, vaporizes an entire river instantly with HV, moves and reacts lightspeed-ish.

    11)Captain Mar-Vell (Marvel comics) - Hmmmmmm - some versions of Mar-Vell are cosmic threats. Some are... just a guy. Most don't have speed and don't have the ability to take blitzes from class 90 or diet-coke class 100s. Win for Nolan.
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  5. #5
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Big, how are you landing on Nolan being faster than end of DB Goku but "way" slower than Kenshiro?

    Ken's speed algorithm pitches him somewhere in the significant multi-mach, End of DB Goku is at that kind of level if not beyond.

    You're either overestimating Ken or underestimating Goku. Either way, I don't think TV show Nolan has the combat speed feats to keep up with them.
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  6. #6
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Also, Karas can definitely blitz him but he might have a tough time getting through his durability.

    Not that Nolan has a hope of catching him, Karas is like Smallville Clark quick.
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  7. #7
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Big, how are you landing on Nolan being faster than end of DB Goku but "way" slower than Kenshiro?

    Ken's speed algorithm pitches him somewhere in the significant multi-mach, End of DB Goku is at that kind of level if not beyond.

    You're either overestimating Ken or underestimating Goku. Either way, I don't think TV show Nolan has the combat speed feats to keep up with them.
    I will accept being wrong and underestimating Goku then. I'm quite current on Z and S Goku, but it's been a long time since I read the early stuff. For some reason, I had pre-Z Goku in my head as a solid bit slower than Ken - which, now that you make me, you know, think about it, yeah, by the end of DB, he's a lot (read: blitz-level) faster than some people who were already multi-mach speedsters.

    I guess the issue is that I have a hard time placing Nolan's combat speed. He's a lot faster than a human, and has some level of super speed (even if a huge amount of Vitrulmite speed feats are travel speed or bull rushes, and they get PIS'd all the time), but where to place him?

    He's faster than Mark by some degree.

    Mark, very early in his development, was capable of setting up his room completely in like three panels, while on a phone call, while also carrying all of the stuff from his house to the dorm without William knowing he was doing it. Mark is a lot faster than that 120ish issues later, or somewhat faster a few episodes later, show wise.

    If we add comic stuff, Mark, after much development since the dorm scene, and Nolan (who is still faster than Mark) are also massively faster than Bulletproof, who does the Flash-standard "spotlessly clean an entire room in a single WOOOOOSH when a person in the room perceives nothing except wind" move when he comes home to a freaking-out girlfriend as his horrible parents are showing up for dinner. And again, Bulletproof's speed is a funny, quaint joke next to Mark and Nolan's.

    Nolan also reacts enough to Red Rush to grab him mid-blitz and kill him. We don't have great feats for RR, which confuses where we put Nolan (for me).

    So this places Nolan, even TV Nolan, at some level of multi-mach speed. How high? That's trickier.

    What's your opinion on it? Where would you relatively place Ken, end of DB Goku and Nolan, relatively? Goku =ish Ken then Nolan? I would say that any of them can kill the others, so it's all down to speed.
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  8. #8
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I will accept being wrong and underestimating Goku then. I'm quite current on Z and S Goku, but it's been a long time since I read the early stuff. For some reason, I had pre-Z Goku in my head as a solid bit slower than Ken - which, now that you make me, you know, think about it, yeah, by the end of DB, he's a lot (read: blitz-level) faster than some people who were already multi-mach speedsters.

    I guess the issue is that I have a hard time placing Nolan's combat speed. He's a lot faster than a human, and has some level of super speed (even if a huge amount of Vitrulmite speed feats are travel speed or bull rushes, and they get PIS'd all the time), but where to place him?

    He's faster than Mark by some degree.

    Mark, very early in his development, was capable of setting up his room completely in like three panels, while on a phone call, while also carrying all of the stuff from his house to the dorm without William knowing he was doing it. Mark is a lot faster than that 120ish issues later, or somewhat faster a few episodes later, show wise.

    If we add comic stuff, Mark, after much development since the dorm scene, and Nolan (who is still faster than Mark) are also massively faster than Bulletproof, who does the Flash-standard "spotlessly clean an entire room in a single WOOOOOSH when a person in the room perceives nothing except wind" move when he comes home to a freaking-out girlfriend as his horrible parents are showing up for dinner. And again, Bulletproof's speed is a funny, quaint joke next to Mark and Nolan's.

    Nolan also reacts enough to Red Rush to grab him mid-blitz and kill him. We don't have great feats for RR, which confuses where we put Nolan (for me).

    So this places Nolan, even TV Nolan, at some level of multi-mach speed. How high? That's trickier.

    What's your opinion on it? Where would you relatively place Ken, end of DB Goku and Nolan, relatively? Goku =ish Ken then Nolan? I would say that any of them can kill the others, so it's all down to speed.
    See, with comic stuff I would be a lot more positive about Nolan being in a similar multimach speed bracket. There's just a lot more feats to work with to support a clearer picture of Viltrumite speed generally, sadly that's not what we're working with here.

    At time of writing, TV Nolan doesn't have that much to be honest. He reacts to Red Rush and snatches his fist when he hits him but otherwise seems to have a bit of difficulty dealing with his speed. Red Rush is also capable of punching him dozens (if not hundreds of times) in the time it takes Nolan to close his hands to crush his skull. Now, there's all kinds of screwy stuff in that scene that is moving that really shouldn't be (blood falling through the air etc.) but it implies to me that the difference between them is quite significant and to Rush's advantage.

    Interestingly, Immortal, who is clocked at mach three later on, is shown moving to try and save Rush and he isn't able to cover any meaningful distance to do so in the time it takes Rush to throw dozens of punches. So, some level of decent multimach there, assuming he was rushing at his top speed to save his comrade. Again, conjecture-y logic there.

    Otherwise, as noted, Immortal is clocked at mach three in flight speed but we never really see Nolan meaningfully contest him in terms of speed. Debbie correctly calculates that sending Nolan to three countries to buy dinner would buy her about 20 minutes of alone time, assuming five minutes per purchase that means five minutes for the trip which is, again, high multimach but it's just flight speed rather than combat stuff.

    When you compare him to Goku and Kenshiro, both of whom have extensive catalogues of doing highly complicated things in very short spaces of time, his feats just aren't as clean.

    I'll also admit to not having nearly as intimate a knowledge of Goku's speed breakdown in DB as I do Kenshiro's stuff. I would... pitch Kenshiro at somewhere like Early Z level... maybe?

    However, the key thing is that neither Ken nor Goku have a feat, off the top of my head, that quite stands up to "change costume, leave picnic, run undisclosed distance into town, stop bank robbery/defeat Kursk, run back to picnic, THEN girlfriend notices that you've moved at all," Like that's an awful lot of stuff to do in effectively 0.2 seconds. I would buy either of them being... in theory, maybe capable of it, but it would be an extremely peak feat for either of them have stuff quite on that scale.

    So... for my money, it would be like:

    Red Rush >> Goku & Ken >> Nolan.

    Like, Nolan could likely snatch them as he did Rush, but given that both of them much more skilled in combat than Red Rush and much closer to Omniman's strength bracket than Rush was, that wouldn't necessarily be a fight ender. TV Nolan is highly likely in the multimach end of the pool based on his handling of Red Rush and other sundry feats and general presentation but I don't think he's in the depths that Goku and Ken hang out in.

    Does that make sense? It's always a little tricky working stuff out for these characters with fewer feats to work with.
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  9. #9
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. I agree that it's tough to work out the "high-end, consistent-with-presentation" when we just don't see all of the feats we need to see, and the best of those are comparison-based.

    Red Rush is very fast. End of DB Goku, to my recollection, isn't so fast that he could approach the Red Rush picnic feat. And even if he might approach the reaction speed, he totally lacks the travel speed, still needing Nimbus to get around quickly over long distances. In the show, Nolan gets hit twice but catches RR on the third, and then... man, it's hard to say how much is "Red Rush is fast enough to do lots of stuff while Nolan is in treacle" or "Red Rush is tough enough that it takes Nolan a while to crush his head." We just don't have enough feats, positive or negative, for RR. We know that Immortal is basically immobile while that's happening. So RR >|>> Nolan >>> Immortal and the rest of the Guardians.

    That's not super concrete, and it's kind of the best feat we have in the show.

    Presentation is that Nolan and all Viltrumites have super speed, but it is, unsurprisingly, never precisely quantified.

    For travel speed, young Mark flies to Mars under his own power in a week. He flies out to moon-orbital level in minutes at most (when meeting Allen for the first time). We know that Nolan is gigantically faster than that, so even taking 1 minute to go from one country to another is clearly PIS or he's just lollygagging.

    Adding comic feats adds a ton of breadth, but... it's not exactly the same and the OP specifically says TV, soooooo... Nolan never really gets feats outside of "faster than Mark" and "as fast as any Viltrumite not named Thragg." Now, that gives some more quantifiable things like "better than early Mark's dorm feat, better than Bulletproof's Flash-room-clean by a LOT" but still, nothing as quantifiable as you see in Dragon Ball or other Shonen stuff.

    Yeah, it's complicated. I still think I'd give Ken's best as better than Goku's end-of-DB speed, though maybe not by much. I think this leads to a pretty easy win for Ken, because Nolan can't do anything to Ken unless Ken is slower than Nolan. Ken just needs MT and he's outside of Nolan's scope to harm. Goku probably has a speed edge based on show feats for Nolan, but... he's also at a deficit for mobility (Nolan's agility in the air and travel speed are much better than Goku's), and Goku lacks anything like Ken's esoterics. While the speed edge is in Goku's favor, this tilts the board a bit and Nolan might be able to squeak a win or two. Maybe? I dunno?
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  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Cody's Avatar
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    I see a Viltrumites reaction speed as being in the Thor(when he tagged classic Quicksilver)-Jane Thor(when she performed multiple surgeries at once) bracket.
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  11. #11
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    I see a Viltrumites reaction speed as being in the Thor(when he tagged classic Quicksilver)-Jane Thor(when she performed multiple surgeries at once) bracket.
    I'd also agree to this sort of take. Obviously some level of superspeed but just a bit open for debate where we put them exactly.

    The only caveat I'd add to this is that not all Viltrumites are created equal, they have a bit more variance than the Kryptonians/Daxamites/etc for example. That's obviously just for clarity's sake, rather than a disagreement with your assessment though.
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  12. #12
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I'd also agree to this sort of take. Obviously some level of superspeed but just a bit open for debate where we put them exactly.

    The only caveat I'd add to this is that not all Viltrumites are created equal, they have a bit more variance than the Kryptonians/Daxamites/etc for example. That's obviously just for clarity's sake, rather than a disagreement with your assessment though.
    Not only are some just built differently (Thragg, or Conquest to a lesser extent), but training makes a big difference for them. Mark got faster and stronger in hours and days. Pre-teen Oliver, training with Mark, was faster in the evening than he'd been in the morning.
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    There does some to be a fairly linear correlation between their strength and their speed though. Despite Mark have separate training routines for strength and speed, every Viltrulmite he fights who was stronger than him also seemed to be faster. That's held up for 4 or 5 different Viltrulmites. Much like DBZ, really, outside of a few exceptions like Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks or Ultra Instinct.

    Honestly Viltrulmites are closer to Saiyans then Kryptonians.

  14. #14
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    There does some to be a fairly linear correlation between their strength and their speed though. Despite Mark have separate training routines for strength and speed, every Viltrulmite he fights who was stronger than him also seemed to be faster. That's held up for 4 or 5 different Viltrulmites. Much like DBZ, really, outside of a few exceptions like Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks or Ultra Instinct.

    Honestly Viltrulmites are closer to Saiyans then Kryptonians.
    Both true points. I touched on the training point above as well - training has a huge effect on them.

    Most of the ones Mark fights are among the very strongest of the history of the race - they are the survivors, after all. Imagine what Mark developed over just a few years - he got his powers at 16, and was physically about 21 at the start of the last volume. Plus he'd spent at least 2 of those 5-ish years in comas while healing, and slacked on / avoided outright training for much of the rest of the time. Now imagine people who have been in a mostly constant state of battle, war, training and just "rank by physical superiority" over hundreds or thousands of years. Nolan is specifically referenced as being a legend among them. Conquest is stronger and faster still, and Thragg outright states that "even Conquest feared me."
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  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Cody's Avatar
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    I'd say Nolan probably reached Conquests level by the end of the war, Mark did kill him during a time he was on par with his dad after all.
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