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  1. #301
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    I don't see why they wouldnt all be the same power level for the most part? To me they should be as strong as 10 men at their physical peak.

    The Amazons who are the Gateway should have armor of enchantment that boosts their strength if anything.

    Hippolyta as Queen should wear the girdle of Venus that makes her stronger than her peers and something that is passed down from Queen to Queen.
    I don't like that idea. It kinda gives the vibe that women need extra gear to be competent, instead of being good enough with their own power and skills. Amazons should be super powerful. Far more than just 10 men. And their powers should come from their hard training. Training the body and mind. That is a great message of self empowerment.

  2. #302
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    How does wearing enchanted armor make them seem incompetent? They are dealing with monsters, demons, etc...If they were super powerful than there was no need for them to lose to Hercules and his crew.

    Having super strength isn't all that you need to win a fight, they also train to ensure that they are at their best with their technique and how to handle weaponry just like we saw in the movie.

    I've never been a fan of the "they train really hard so they become super powerful", never made sense to me. By that logic anyone who trains really hard should become super powerful. They were (re)birthed by the gods, that should come with some gifts of its own.

  3. #303
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    How does wearing enchanted armor make them seem incompetent? They are dealing with monsters, demons, etc...If they were super powerful than there was no need for them to lose to Hercules and his crew.

    Having super strength isn't all that you need to win a fight, they also train to ensure that they are at their best with their technique and how to handle weaponry just like we saw in the movie.

    I've never been a fan of the "they train really hard so they become super powerful", never made sense to me. By that logic anyone who trains really hard should become super powerful. They were (re)birthed by the gods, that should come with some gifts of its own.
    And who said they should lose to Hercules?. They should be like seme Gods. Since they were given life by goddesses. Plus their constant training. They should be super powerful as a combination of those 2 factors. I want them to be super powerful on their own merit. Not because of gear.

  4. #304
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    And who said they should lose to Hercules?. They should be like seme Gods. Since they were given life by goddesses. Plus their constant training. They should be super powerful as a combination of those 2 factors. I want them to be super powerful on their own merit. Not because of gear.
    It's part of basically every origin story that we have with them, everyone has to start somewhere. Being created by the gods breathed life into them but they didnt give them gift them the same way they gifted Diana. And even going by that we see in some that the gods created Man so technically...man should all be demi gods?

  5. #305
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    It's part of basically every origin story that we have with them, everyone has to start somewhere. Being created by the gods breathed life into them but they didnt give them gift them the same way they gifted Diana. And even going by that we see in some that the gods created Man so technically...man should all be demi gods?
    Why not? They should be like demi Gods. Brought to life by the Gods and the potential to expand their powers via training of the body and mind.

  6. #306
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    I have to agree with PrimalSlayer here... the amazons shouldn't be demigods, superhuman like Captian America sure, but not demigods. Actually, the only amazon demigods should be Hippolyta and her 3 sisters since they are actual children of Ares. Diana and Nubia are something more, not Gods fully but, greater then Demigods.

    And they don't really "loose" to Herakles... more like betrayed. In Perez's version i.e. the best version, Hippolyta actually best Herakles in single combat, Herc laughs loosing off and says that there shouldn't be a conflict and if the amazons can host him and his army for a day of peace, and Hippolyta agrees. Its then, when her guard is down, that Herakles drugs Hippolyta, beats her and rapes her. The amazons are taken as slaves and Themyscira burns in fire. It lasts only a day, cause the moment Herc leaves Hippolyta, with the aid of Athena, frees herself and her sisters, taking them from the mainland to the Aegean Sea where the Goddesses meet them to give them Paradise Island and the task/new responsibility to protecting Dooms doorway.

    It has to happen however because its THE inciting incident that causes the amazons to abandon the world. If they leave because of some obscure reason or the men were just mean, that kind of lessens their reasoning for abandoning the world and makes their antagonism to anyone from the outside world come form a place of "well, they were kind of mean to us before" rather then "they took us as slaves because we would not submit willingly".
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  7. #307
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I have to agree with PrimalSlayer here... the amazons shouldn't be demigods, superhuman like Captian America sure, but not demigods. Actually, the only amazon demigods should be Hippolyta and her 3 sisters since they are actual children of Ares. Diana and Nubia are something more, not Gods fully but, greater then Demigods.

    And they don't really "loose" to Herakles... more like betrayed. In Perez's version i.e. the best version, Hippolyta actually best Herakles in single combat, Herc laughs loosing off and says that there shouldn't be a conflict and if the amazons can host him and his army for a day of peace, and Hippolyta agrees. Its then, when her guard is down, that Herakles drugs Hippolyta, beats her and rapes her. The amazons are taken as slaves and Themyscira burns in fire. It lasts only a day, cause the moment Herc leaves Hippolyta, with the aid of Athena, frees herself and her sisters, taking them from the mainland to the Aegean Sea where the Goddesses meet them to give them Paradise Island and the task/new responsibility to protecting Dooms doorway.

    It has to happen however because its THE inciting incident that causes the amazons to abandon the world. If they leave because of some obscure reason or the men were just mean, that kind of lessens their reasoning for abandoning the world and makes their antagonism to anyone from the outside world come form a place of "well, they were kind of mean to us before" rather then "they took us as slaves because we would not submit willingly".
    Pretty much yes to all of this, though I think we can drop the rape and slavery bit. Taken prisoner while your city burns is bad enough.

    I know that having them be raped and enslaved is more likely what would have happened, but these are wish fulfillment and heroic figures for young girls. I don't think we need Diana's mom to get raped in the backstory. I'm willing to suspend that degree of disbelief and say that they stopped short of that stuff if we can scrub it for the younger readers of which theses characters belong to as much if not more than us old farts.

    But I respect if others disagree.
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-01-2021 at 12:51 PM.
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  8. #308
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Pretty much yes to all of this, though I think we can drop the rape and slavery bit. Taken prisoner while your city burns is bad enough.

    I know that having them be raped and enslaved is more likely what would have happened, but these are wish fulfillment and heroic figures for young girls. I don't think we need Diana's mom to get raped in the backstory. I'm willing to suspend that degree of disbelief and say that they stopped short of that stuff if we can scrub it for the younger readers of which theses characters belong to as much if not more than us old farts.

    But I respect if others disagree.
    In Perez's version when Herc knocks out Hippolyta it cuts to black, its when Herc is over Hippolyta saying that he "made her into a real woman" implies rape. Which one could argue that people were kids reading that story. I thought it was a mature way of handling that topic without needing to show it for shook value, which would only happen in something like STARS or HBO. I'm sure there is a way of explaining that to a younger audience without explicitly saying it.
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  9. #309
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    In Perez and Marston's run, the Girdle is often portrayed as an important source of their power. I think as far as Marston was concerned, the Amazons were a group of exceptional women created by female Goddesses who were punished by insecure men like Hercules because they (especially Hippolyta) were outshining the men. I think it's possible to make that point without rape (which could left implied like Perez did or not at all). I think the more pressing concern is the Goddesses victim blaming the Amazons and essentially banishing them for fighting back against their captors. I think that's the part that needs to be changed or updated the most.

  10. #310
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    I don't see why they wouldnt all be the same power level for the most part? To me they should be as strong as 10 men at their physical peak.

    The Amazons who are the Gateway should have armor of enchantment that boosts their strength if anything.

    Hippolyta as Queen should wear the girdle of Venus that makes her stronger than her peers and something that is passed down from Queen to Queen.
    Fair enough. The reason why I said maybe the Doom Gate amazons are stronger is maybe their farther training would be different. That they had very different training than their peers. I Wouldn't mind if while they are powerful there is always the need for no chance. Like how Diana will still do bullets and bullets. In terms of their girdle. Maybe they didn't have it and for a bit they never left the man's world. They were looking for the griddle.That it winds up getting lost. In like in Perez Hippoltya's sister would stay and Hippoltya would leave to the Island.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 08-01-2021 at 04:46 PM.

  11. #311
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    In Perez and Marston's run, the Girdle is often portrayed as an important source of their power. I think as far as Marston was concerned, the Amazons were a group of exceptional women created by female Goddesses who were punished by insecure men like Hercules because they (especially Hippolyta) were outshining the men. I think it's possible to make that point without rape (which could left implied like Perez did or not at all). I think the more pressing concern is the Goddesses victim blaming the Amazons and essentially banishing them for fighting back against their captors. I think that's the part that needs to be changed or updated the most.
    I'd make the change that the Gods don't blame the amazons for their enslavement but that clearly they did abandon their original mission of spreading peace. So, to prevent something like this again they create Paradise Island so they can be safe, but gave them the new task of guarding DDW.
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  12. #312
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think it makes sense if the Amazons were rightfully angry but they made some kind of mistake or broke one of the Gods decrees (and knowing Greek myths it cold be something as frivolous as Persephone looking back and getting trapped in Hades forever) and that's what got them banished to Themyscira.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Pretty much yes to all of this, though I think we can drop the rape and slavery bit. Taken prisoner while your city burns is bad enough.

    I know that having them be raped and enslaved is more likely what would have happened, but these are wish fulfillment and heroic figures for young girls. I don't think we need Diana's mom to get raped in the backstory. I'm willing to suspend that degree of disbelief and say that they stopped short of that stuff if we can scrub it for the younger readers of which theses characters belong to as much if not more than us old farts.

    But I respect if others disagree.
    I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but this implies that being a rape victim means you can't be a heroic figure.

    As for young girls, I think people underestimate what kids can handle or are already exposed to in fiction.

  14. #314
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Yeah, I think it makes sense if the Amazons were rightfully angry but they made some kind of mistake or broke one of the Gods decrees (and knowing Greek myths it cold be something as frivolous as Persephone looking back and getting trapped in Hades forever) and that's what got them banished to Themyscira.
    Or maybe sent there because they "lost" to Hercules? Not necessarily punishment, but... a response anyways.

  15. #315
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I think Paradise Island should be a blessing, not a punishment. And that's why I would get rid of Dooms Doorway

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