Power Level complains

[WonderLight789]

I just remembered now. Thanks to fellow member vordan. That WW has never beat SM without external help like kryptonite or an especial item. While he chas easily killed her multiple times wigh just his bare hands. Says a lot about the greatest female hero uh? A total piece of helpless garbage next to the strongest male. That's the hierarchy that some here seem to be ok with.

[DochaDocha]

Well, she certainly didn't lose the "Sacrifice" fight. Some would say her tiara could've taken his head off but obviously she wasn't going for the kill so she just cut his carotid.

I suppose you could argue that Superman was mind-controlled and maybe that diminishes the feat, but if he weren't mind-controlled they wouldn't be fighting...

I also think I saw some posted scans from Injustice where she beat him. I suppose you could also say that fight is diminished because everyone was beating Superman at that point...

[SonOfBaldwin]

I suppose you could argue that Superman was mind-controlled and maybe that diminishes the feat, but if he weren't mind-controlled they wouldn't be fighting...

Honestly, only the folks desperate to prove Diana is no match for Clark would argue this point. The story makes clear that Superman was operating at no-holds-barred, peak-level, shoot-to-kill mode given that what he thought he was doing was fighting Doomsday, who had just murdered the love of his life, Lois Lane, right in front of him. What's also clear is that if anyone is holding back in that battle, it's Diana.

I've read that story several times and I've concluded that what was communicated is that Diana and Clark may not have the same exact powers, but both of them have the potential to do serious harm to the other, making them, in totality, virtually, if not actually, equal in terms of overall power.

[DochaDocha]

Honestly, only the folks desperate to prove Diana is no match for Clark would argue this point.

Not true. People who want to prove WW is never treated well might make this argument, too...

[WonderLight789]

Not true. People who want to prove WW is never treated well might make this argument, too...

Sacrifice was an ok performance. She was holding back so that context gives her some extra points. Still not the best oerformance i would expect from WW vs Superman.

By the way. Is there context to WW geting trashed in one hit by zod in this tv show?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJMek3xWZ3k

[WonderScott]

Honestly, only the folks desperate to prove Diana is no match for Clark would argue this point. The story makes clear that Superman was operating at no-holds-barred, peak-level, shoot-to-kill mode given that what he thought he was doing was fighting Doomsday, who had just murdered the love of his life, Lois Lane, right in front of him. What's also clear is that if anyone is holding back in that battle, it's Diana.

I've read that story several times and I've concluded that what was communicated is that Diana and Clark may not have the same exact powers, but both of them have the potential to do serious harm to the other, making them, in totality, virtually, if not actually, equal in terms of overall power.

This. I have a similar read of the story.

[WonderScott]

I swear that if I ever get to influence Wonder Woman’s adventures in some form, I’m going to have her defeat Black Adam, Lex Luthor, Bizarro, Cheetah, Ares, Doomsday, Superwoman, Ultraman, Zod, Ursa, Darkseid, Ra’s al Ghul, Circe, Superboy Prime, Lobo, Mongul, Cyborg Superman, and others to prove her smarts, mettle and power… and that’ll be in the first issue alone.

Diana deserves to be shown as amazingly smart and powerful and awe-inspiring in her feats and abilities!

[phonogram12]

Not true. People who want to prove WW is never treated well might make this argument, too...

Ha! 100% true!

[Agent Z]

Not true. People who want to prove WW is never treated well might make this argument, too...

And yet we all know who actually uses such an argument.

[witchboy]

Superman has historically been portrayed as more powerful. I don't see that most powerful should always mean most interesting.
I do think Diana should be the better fighter of the two, and the better leader. There's more to being a hero than power level.

[bardkeep]

Superman has historically been portrayed as more powerful. I don't see that most powerful should always mean most interesting.
I do think Diana should be the better fighter of the two, and the better leader. There's more to being a hero than power level.

Interestingly I think a disproportionate number of WW's best stories have come from writers who depict her as really powerful (Perez, Rucka, Simone, Jimenez). And on the flip side, most of her depowered arcs have been complete failures (mod era, Heinberg reboot, Odyssey, WW84). There are some lousy stories where she's a heavy hitter and it could be a coincidence, but I suspect writers who really get the character understand that her being a powerhouse is part of the package.

Anyway, I get your sentiment and I'm not the type to obsess over power levels, but the point of her conception was to make a character as strong Superman but empowered entirely by feminine forces (a concept that's already been betrayed with Papa Zeus...). The comparison was there from day 1 and in the GA they were pretty close, though the scale of her adventures was ridiculously vast compared to his. The difference is that after Marston's death, DC shrunk her world rather than expanding it, and unlike Mary Marvel or Supergirl she couldn't just scale up with a male counterpart. In other words, I don't think precedent should be gospel because it's based on a rocky history. Personally I don't mind Superman having the edge in raw power, but I think the gap should be pretty small - if you downgrade her too much, it means all of the strongest superheroines are just derivatives of more powerful and iconic men.

(Though, sidenote: I've got a bone to pick with anyone who think Shazam outclasses her in any way. They have nearly identical powers given to them by the same number of deities from the same pantheon, but she's hundreds of years old from an immortal warrior race and he's a literal child. Make it make sense!)

[Phoenixx9]

To me, Wonder Woman is in the same class as Superman, albeit just a smidge under, but which is virtually tied with him. So for exampe, if Supes is 100, WW is 98. I see Ursa, PG, SG, MaryM as a few under WW.

So Clark would be wise to avoid fighting with Diana.

[Perseus]

Interestingly I think a disproportionate number of WW's best stories have come from writers who depict her as really powerful (Perez, Rucka, Simone, Jimenez). And on the flip side, most of her depowered arcs have been complete failures (mod era, Heinberg reboot, Odyssey, WW84). There are some lousy stories where she's a heavy hitter and it could be a coincidence, but I suspect writers who really get the character understand that her being a powerhouse is part of the package.

Anyway, I get your sentiment and I'm not the type to obsess over power levels, but the point of her conception was to make a character as strong Superman but empowered entirely by feminine forces (a concept that's already been betrayed with Papa Zeus...). The comparison was there from day 1 and in the GA they were pretty close, though the scale of her adventures was ridiculously vast compared to his. The difference is that after Marston's death, DC shrunk her world rather than expanding it, and unlike Mary Marvel or Supergirl she couldn't just scale up with a male counterpart. In other words, I don't think precedent should be gospel because it's based on a rocky history. Personally I don't mind Superman having the edge in raw power, but I think the gap should be pretty small - if you downgrade her too much, it means all of the strongest superheroines are just derivatives of more powerful and iconic men.

(Though, sidenote: I've got a bone to pick with anyone who think Shazam outclasses her in any way. They have nearly identical powers given to them by the same number of deities from the same pantheon, but she's hundreds of years old from an immortal warrior race and he's a literal child. Make it make sense!)

Not to mention Diana's thing about power is her literally being stronger than heracles and faster than hermes, she by definition should be more powerful than the SHAZAM family.

[BiteTheBullet]

Not to mention Diana's thing about power is her literally being stronger than heracles and faster than hermes, she by definition should be more powerful than the SHAZAM family.

Not unless she goes up against Mary Marvel!

[WonderLight789]

Superman has historically been portrayed as more powerful. I don't see that most powerful should always mean most interesting.
I do think Diana should be the better fighter of the two, and the better leader. There's more to being a hero than power level.

Only due to sexism and more popularity in later decades. They were pretty equal during a part of Golden Age, and she was created with the intetion to be as strong as him.