Which is the worst mentor: Batman or Green Arrow?

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think it's an objective truth. People tend to just accentuate the negative.

Periodically hitting his kids and allowing some of them to get killed on his watch, not to mention all the emotional manipulation/neglect/abuse, are negatives that are pretty easy to accentuate.

Especially as it wasn't what he used to be like, so he's been derailed pretty hardcore.

[J. D. Guy]

I mean, there are examples where they dropped the ball, sure, but I think generally their sidekicks turn out pretty well.

For every Jason or Stephanie there's a Dick and Tim, and for every Roy or Connor there's a Mia and Emiko.

You want to know who I think is the worst mentor? Blue Devil.

Care to elaborate? Why and how so?

[Jim Kelly]

I'm still enough of a Batman fan that I get my back up when people say Bruce is the worst. Because it isn't Bruce--it's the people that write the character. Just because a writer changes the character, that doesn't mean his version erases all the other versions. I like Batman, I just don't like what the comics have done to him.

[BatmanJones]

I'm still enough of a Batman fan that I get my back up when people say Bruce is the worst. Because it isn't Bruce--it's the people that write the character. Just because a writer changes the character, that doesn't mean his version erases all the other versions. I like Batman, I just don't like what the comics have done to him.

But isn’t it always the writers doing things one might like or hate? I mean, the characters are no more than action figures otherwise, they don’t have minds or hearts or make decisions but that the writers wrote them to.

The confusion between writer and character I’m often reminded of on this board and elsewhere always remembers me to this simple riddle:

Q: Who would win in a fight between Superman and Batman?
A: They’re drawings.

[BatmanJones]

Care to elaborate? Why and how so?

Because, Kid Devil/Red Devil. Is there anything else that needs saying?

[Jabare]

In more recent years Batman's not winning any mentorship awards, but he does have some success stories under his belt.

Dick Grayson is probably Batman's greatest success. He's the first superhero sidekick and he broke barriers. Grayson succeeded on an unprecedented level. He reached heights most sidekicks couldn't even dream of. His success cemented Batman as a mentor and leader in pop culture. Not only that, his successful tenure as Robin encouraged many other well-meaning/sensible heroes to get sidekicks of their own. Grayson, probably changed the trajectory of Batman's character so much so some writers and fans think Bruce is the best leader of the Justice League (over Batman and Wonder Woman!).

Granted Batman doesn't have a great long-term track record with most of his other "direct" sidekicks. I guess Duke did okay. Terry McGuiness is another great example depending on which canon you're using. Nevertheless, Bruce has had some success along with some failure.


In the comics, Ollie doesn't have anything to write home about. If you take the Arrowverse, Oliver's got more of an argument, but in the comic pages, Roy is a cautionary tale.

Look at this list:
https://www.cbr.com/green-arrow-oliver-queen-sidekicks/


After Dick Grayson, Wonder Woman, and maybe a few iconic Titans members, Batman's arguably the best Mentor DC has. It isn't a high bar but he beats out Barry Allen and Aquaman. Who else is even in the conversation? Wildcat (Ted Grant)? I'm not counting masters like O-sensei, characters like that belong in different categories.

[Frontier]

Periodically hitting his kids and allowing some of them to get killed on his watch, not to mention all the emotional manipulation/neglect/abuse, are negatives that are pretty easy to accentuate.

Especially as it wasn't what he used to be like, so he's been derailed pretty hardcore.

I feel like people make it sound like that is more common than it actually is, or at least downplay the majority of the good moments, or at least there are good stretches where he's not like that.

[Jim Kelly]

But isn’t it always the writers doing things one might like or hate? I mean, the characters are no more than action figures otherwise, they don’t have minds or hearts or make decisions but that the writers wrote them to.

The confusion between writer and character I’m often reminded of on this board and elsewhere always remembers me to this simple riddle:

Q: Who would win in a fight between Superman and Batman?
A: They’re drawings.

Read AN UNLIKELY PROPHET by Alvin Schwartz, if you haven't already. At least the first part where he talks about his time at D.C. Schwartz felt that he knew who these characters were and when they rang false. He left the comics over a dispute with Mort Weisinger, when Mort wanted him to write a story that had the characters acting against what Alvin believe they would do.

I think, in the past, there was a general idea of who these characters were, with some variance--like Kanigher playing up the playboy side of Bruce and Fox playing up the mentor side--but it's the same guy pretty much.

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel like people make it sound like that is more common than it actually is, or at least downplay the majority of the good moments, or at least there are good stretches where he's not like that.

I think even if there are good stretches or it doesn't happen as often, the abusive events should not be downplayed. Abusers are frequently not one note monsters 100% of the time, but are still capable of wrong actions that shouldn't be overlooked. Even if they are good most of the time, if there are patterns to their behavior (and with Bruce there is), the good stuff does not cancel it out. That's not how it works.

It's not really Bruce's fault as a character since he isn't real and at the whims of writers who would rather go for cheap drama and shock value than keeping one of their main heroes consistently heroic. But the combo of them repeating themselves and fans being obsessed with having a rigid canon and counting everything or nothing doesn't help him. I'd vastly prefer just making a clean break from current canon for Bruce.

[Nite-Wing]

They both let children fight crime
Bruce's kids end up dead
Ollies kids end up addicted to drugs, sex, and alcohol

I'm going to say Bruce though because he keeps collecting kids

[Frontier]

I think even if there are good stretches or it doesn't happen as often, the abusive events should not be downplayed. Abusers are frequently not one note monsters 100% of the time, but are still capable of wrong actions that shouldn't be overlooked. Even if they are good most of the time, if there are patterns to their behavior (and with Bruce there is), the good stuff does not cancel it out. That's not how it works.

I don't think it's a matter of downplaying but also acknowledging the full context and collective nature of the character, but I also don't see Bruce as an abuser at his worst so I guess it just comes down to personal opinion (or what you've read).

It's not really Bruce's fault as a character since he isn't real and at the whims of writers who would rather go for cheap drama and shock value than keeping one of their main heroes consistently heroic. But the combo of them repeating themselves and fans being obsessed with having a rigid canon and counting everything or nothing doesn't help him. I'd vastly prefer just making a clean break from current canon for Bruce.

For me I found it heroic to see a hero go through difficult emotional trauma that put them in a dark place that they then rose out of (even if that happens 2-3 times ever decade), but I guess it depends how you look at it.

[Zorkel567]

I bet Bruce has a reusable casket now.

This got a laugh out of me.

Damian has died 3 times now. Batman needs to upgrade to superpowered sidekicks maybe.

I think that may have been part of the idea with Duke Thomas, who did get super powers, even if he is more off on his own these days. Maybe we'll get some idea of DC's intentions for him with his Secret Files One-Shot in july.

[SJNeal]

They both let children fight crime
Bruce's kids end up dead
Ollies kids end up addicted to drugs, sex, and alcohol

I'm going to say Bruce though because he keeps collecting kids

I'd rather end up the latter, tbh...