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  1. #1
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    Default Storm and Clone troopers ineptitude

    I'm making my way through the prequel series and shows. It strikes me interesting that both the Clone and Storm troopers are pretty inept. In practically every battle scene they fire their weapons, the Jedi charge in battle and more troopers are killed and the Jedi escape battle without even a scratch. Plus, Jedi are somehow able to block every single shot that's fired at them. What's the point of having soldiers against telekinetic and mind reading powers? I feel like there should be more balance with the fighting. The writing really tends to make characters with Jedi powers look better than anyone else.
    Last edited by CTTT; 05-06-2021 at 07:46 AM.

  2. #2
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    The answer is that it's the very problem with a prequel where we know certain characters have to survive. Obi-wan and Anakin for example are simply not in any real danger due to the fact that they're in the Prequel trilogy. Even Ahsoka to a lesser extent since she was an audience insert character and has to be around in order for that to work. Season 7 would give her the movie status-quo since she's in Rebels so she was never going to be harmed in her escape from the Venator.

    A lot of the poor tactics is also because the people writing and animating these stories tend to not be the people who actually know anything about millitary strategy or combat which is why you hear or see flanking maneuvers a lot or really unconventional tactics. Or if you're Thrawn in Rebels just babbling on about art like that makes him more competent than the other commanders. It's also a kids show and so it'd be kind of awkward if Anakin shows up like he just finished fighting Obi-wan.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    It's not just the prequels, it's something that comes up in any fantasy really. The bad guys are big bad and scary to your average villager and the heroes talk about how mercilessly and easily they've subjugated the kingdom/galaxy but when it actually comes down to a real conflict between them and the heroes the bad guys fall down like bowling pins.

    Now, you can either see that as unrealistic and walk away, or just accept that it's part of the plot mechanics of this type of story and enjoy yourself.

  4. #4
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    A lot of the poor tactics is also because the people writing and animating these stories tend to not be the people who actually know anything about millitary strategy or combat which is why you hear or see flanking maneuvers a lot or really unconventional tactics. Or if you're Thrawn in Rebels just babbling on about art like that makes him more competent than the other commanders. It's also a kids show and so it'd be kind of awkward if Anakin shows up like he just finished fighting Obi-wan.
    Well, comparatively he was. The only time he was really defeated was from a Force God or frikkin space whales.
    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It's not just the prequels, it's something that comes up in any fantasy really. The bad guys are big bad and scary to your average villager and the heroes talk about how mercilessly and easily they've subjugated the kingdom/galaxy but when it actually comes down to a real conflict between them and the heroes the bad guys fall down like bowling pins.

    Now, you can either see that as unrealistic and walk away, or just accept that it's part of the plot mechanics of this type of story and enjoy yourself.
    Or like how in pretty much every TMNT adaption the Foot Clan start out as actual threats before they just become normal mooks in subsequent episodes.

  5. #5
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, comparatively he was. The only time he was really defeated was from a Force God or frikkin space whales.
    People under him disobeying him at critical moments. Had they kept their egos in check and listened to him they were have succeeded.

  6. #6
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    Didn't at one point Thrawn have the Rebel base ready to be orbital bombarded but went to the ground himself giving the rebels time to escape and encountering said force god who could be stopped by simple blasterfire? A threat that even had he known about would've been taken out in the bombardment.

    He also set up the Tie defender program on Lothal. A place that has routinely sabotaged Imperial efforts by essentially a bunch of yahoos in a van. Admirals, the ISB, the Inquisitors, and Darth freaking Vader couldn't stop them.

    I'm just saying tactically Thrawn is inept.
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  7. #7
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Didn't at one point Thrawn have the Rebel base ready to be orbital bombarded but went to the ground himself giving the rebels time to escape and encountering said force god who could be stopped by simple blasterfire? A threat that even had he known about would've been taken out in the bombardment.
    To be fair, I remember him having the Rebels utterly dead to rights before the Force God showed up.
    He also set up the Tie defender program on Lothal. A place that has routinely sabotaged Imperial efforts by essentially a bunch of yahoos in a van. Admirals, the ISB, the Inquisitors, and Darth freaking Vader couldn't stop them.

    I'm just saying tactically Thrawn is inept.
    Well, the failure of the Tie Defender is like 70% Pryce (who was definitely inept in comparison to Thrawn).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To be fair, I remember him having the Rebels utterly dead to rights before the Force God showed up.

    Well, the failure of the Tie Defender is like 70% Pryce (who was definitely inept in comparison to Thrawn).
    One of the things that I hope continues as a recurring trend for Thrawn in the live action shows her evidence that the Empire he believed was pragmatically the best ally his people could have is in fact a breeding ground of incompetence and ineptitude in the chain of command because that’s what fascism inevitably becomes.

    To me, the pitch perfect Vader or Thrawn story from a military perspective isn’t one that tries to apply real world strategies and tactics, but simply maintains internal consistency (sooo... no TLJ nonsense), but makes good internal conflict fodder for the villians by having the competent main villain (Vader, Thrawn) have to manage a collection of military staff that’s have competent professionals, and half incompetent careerists trying to sabotage rol keep down the professionals.

    It should always feel like the head honchos are smart enough that they don’t rely on strictly gratuitous numerical advantages, and that at any point tin a conflict they should be able to win a stand-up fight without issue... but that they always have to deal with the kind of people that Palpatine (and even Tarkin, to some extent) allow into the ranks to maintain micro-managing control at the cost of efficacy.

    For Stormtroopers, that should mean that unless the heroes are proving themselves exceptional badasses, they should be in genuine danger from regular troopers, and that even the exceptional badasses are in danger from numerical superiority being used intelligently.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Didn't at one point Thrawn have the Rebel base ready to be orbital bombarded but went to the ground himself giving the rebels time to escape and encountering said force god who could be stopped by simple blasterfire? A threat that even had he known about would've been taken out in the bombardment.

    He also set up the Tie defender program on Lothal. A place that has routinely sabotaged Imperial efforts by essentially a bunch of yahoos in a van. Admirals, the ISB, the Inquisitors, and Darth freaking Vader couldn't stop them.

    I'm just saying tactically Thrawn is inept.
    IIRC, Vadar wasn't there to stop the rebels. He was there to find the Jedi temple and destroy it. Which he did.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    One of the things that I hope continues as a recurring trend for Thrawn in the live action shows her evidence that the Empire he believed was pragmatically the best ally his people could have is in fact a breeding ground of incompetence and ineptitude in the chain of command because that’s what fascism inevitably becomes.

    To me, the pitch perfect Vader or Thrawn story from a military perspective isn’t one that tries to apply real world strategies and tactics, but simply maintains internal consistency (sooo... no TLJ nonsense), but makes good internal conflict fodder for the villians by having the competent main villain (Vader, Thrawn) have to manage a collection of military staff that’s have competent professionals, and half incompetent careerists trying to sabotage rol keep down the professionals.

    It should always feel like the head honchos are smart enough that they don’t rely on strictly gratuitous numerical advantages, and that at any point tin a conflict they should be able to win a stand-up fight without issue... but that they always have to deal with the kind of people that Palpatine (and even Tarkin, to some extent) allow into the ranks to maintain micro-managing control at the cost of efficacy.

    For Stormtroopers, that should mean that unless the heroes are proving themselves exceptional badasses, they should be in genuine danger from regular troopers, and that even the exceptional badasses are in danger from numerical superiority being used intelligently.
    ...that's generally how it is so I'm not sure what the issue is.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    ...that's generally how it is so I'm not sure what the issue is.
    Eh, usually it’s not an issue.

    The onyl times it has been is in stuff like early Rebels before they up the ante for the villains, or in TLJ, where no one’s allowed to have a competent brain cel in their skull. And even in TLJ, it’s not a stormtrooper problem - it’s an “everyone else” problem.
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  12. #12
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    I think part of why Order 66 was successful was that the Jedi were taken by surprise-many of these Clones were ones they had fought with before and become friends with.

    Yoda sensed something was wrong through a disturbance in the force (Perhaps Palpatine should've gotten to him first); largely the same with Ashoka, and Obi-Wan just kind of got lucky. When they're picking off Clones at the temple later in the film they know what to expect.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think part of why Order 66 was successful was that the Jedi were taken by surprise-many of these Clones were ones they had fought with before and become friends with.

    Yoda sensed something was wrong through a disturbance in the force (Perhaps Palpatine should've gotten to him first); largely the same with Ashoka, and Obi-Wan just kind of got lucky. When they're picking off Clones at the temple later in the film they know what to expect.
    Yeah, I mean it was so quick and sudden most of them barely had a chance to react before they Clones started shooting.

  14. #14
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    instead of wandering around Tatooine killing people while looking for two droids they could have just said, "hey, like we lost these droids. we need them back because they have important information on them that could put your planet at risk. we'll give you enough money to buy four comparable droids instead. if that isn't enough we'll also give you a tax voucher for 10 years!"

    most people would have said, "okay! let me go get them right now!" if they had offered Owen and Beru money for those droids they probably would have told Luke to get over it and thrown those droids under the bus. Owen was clearly not interested in tangling with the Empire.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    instead of wandering around Tatooine killing people while looking for two droids they could have just said, "hey, like we lost these droids. we need them back because they have important information on them that could put your planet at risk. we'll give you enough money to buy four comparable droids instead. if that isn't enough we'll also give you a tax voucher for 10 years!"

    most people would have said, "okay! let me go get them right now!" if they had offered Owen and Beru money for those droids they probably would have told Luke to get over it and thrown those droids under the bus. Owen was clearly not interested in tangling with the Empire.
    Yeah...but then the story would never have unfolded.

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