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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    Japanese manga and European comics (like Asterix) do much better in sales than DC and Marvel, and so any explanation for the Big 2's problems should take that into account.

    For example, if I weren't aware that some foreign comics do much, much better in sales than American comics, I probably would've guessed that there is just too much entertainment competition these days for comics to thrive between video games, streaming TV shows and movies, and just various other entertainment you can use the internet for, which wasn't available to consumers prior to the late 90s / early 00s. However, that explanation becomes unsatisfactory since those entertainment options are available in other countries as well.

    Personally, I think the current state of writing in American comics is awful (especially at the Big 2) and that plays a major role, and what others have said about the lack of an indirect market also plays a role, especially with regards to the inability to capitalize on superhero movies being so popular over the past decade. I don't know exactly what DC and Marvel should've done (maybe spinner racks in movie theaters complete with comics labeled "The Story Continues..." with stories spinning out of the movies) but it seems pretty likely an opportunity was missed.
    Asterix is a monster hit, but what about the 15th biggest ongoing French comic book series?

    Quote Originally Posted by seismic-2 View Post
    Marvel and DC comics are sold through specialty stores that are often seedy on the outside, are dingy on the inside, are crowded with slovenly middle-aged men, and are not places that are kid-friendly. The only customers for that product are the same group of guys who have been patronizing those stores for decades and are now gradually aging out of the hobby. It has to be the same group of guys, because no one could possibly pick up most of the main titles and have a clue what's going on, unless they had already read years' worth of issues of those same titles and many others that form the background for the current stories. To keep this core audience coming back, DC and Marvel rely on a constant stream of super-mega-crossover "events" that disrupt all the continuing stories and that end up back where they started. This seems to be the only thing that the Big Two know how to do, since hype has long replaced creativity as the means for selling the books. The parent corporations regard the comics as simply intellectual properties for retail marketing and especially for movie and TV adaptations, since they apparently know of no way to make the comic books themselves be anything other than a mere footnote on the Disney and ATT balance sheets. Meanwhile, companies like Scholastic sell graphic novels to kids at book fairs, in "real" bookstores, and via Amazon, routinely racking up numbers beyond anything that DC or Marvel would even dare dream of.
    An additional problem with the comic store market is that it's facing more changes and competition.

    You could get major graphic novels cheaper online, so there's less reason to go there.

    The back issue market has also changed, thanks to the internet and digital reprints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickswordfish View Post
    It sounds to me that if real change doesnt happen both companies are going to die
    That won't happen.

    The properties are too valuable for Disney and Warner Brothers. Comics is essentially a R&D department that pays for itself.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Marvel and DCs problems in my opinion are as follows:

    1. Not flowing with the times. Most superheroes were held in stasis that when any meaningful changes they were met with derision. Worse still when said changes were made they were eventually reversed, sometimes decades after. See Spider-man and The Flash. IMO, superhero comics completely missed a generation because of this and they are now struggling to get them back.

    2. Marrying themselves to a broken distribution system. Comics distribution used to be massive both within and outside the direct market with multiple distribution companies. The indirect market basically stopped carrying comics and the direct market basically collapsed in the 90s with Diamond emerging as the sole distributor. This should have been a signal to the companies to adjust their practices and immediately explore new forms of distribution. The direct market as it stood pretty much prevented the creation of new comics and basically set a hard limit to what superhero comics could be. I keep going back to the case of Motor Crush which was completely under ordered in the direct market but tore up the bookstore market. Same with titles like Ms Marvel and even Coates Black Panther. Poor distribution has basically kept the market from growing and Marvel and DC stuck themselves to this...until Diamond almost collapsed the industry and the big two finally woke up and moved away from Diamond. The problem is that it’s too late now, the damage is done.

    3. Not enough diversity. All other forms of entertainment have learnt and understood that diversity in an increasingly diverse society is absolutely necessary to survival. But instead of creating more diverse characters and pushing them out, the big two simply doubled down on their existing portfolio completely ignoring real demographic change. How can a medium that appeals to young people with majority of characters being white really be successful in a society where majority of the population under a certain age isn’t even white? It doesn’t make any sense. Marvel and DCs solution to this has been somewhat inelegant because they basically had to start changing existing characters race and sexuality to appeal but this isn’t always the best way and can create friction.

    4. Pricing. Comics are unrealistically expensive and it really doesn’t make sense for any lower to middle income adult to spend $4-$5 on a few minutes of entertainment each week. It just doesn’t make sense. This is stuff that needs to be addressed because my understanding is that comic prices are rising faster than inflation which is completely unsustainable.
    Meaningful changes do come with tradeoffs, and there's a whole question about where to go next with a character, as well as when the character loses what made them popular in the first place.

    I also don't know if it would've been better for Marvel if fans of Spider-Man: Homecoming pick up Spider-Man comics and he's married to a redhead actress, or if fans of the Flash TV show pick up new Flash comics and Barry Allen's dead, replaced by his nephew.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    A library card solves this problem. I buy books of my favorite characters but I BORROW the rest. No need to waste money.
    Libraries are great, but they're often not that well-stocked.

    Ongoing series present some complications. What happens when someone else has borrowed half of Ed Brubaker's Captain America? What if parts of a longer run go missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickswordfish View Post
    Are the people who are in charge of Marvel and DC aware of these problems, do they have any plans to fix them?
    The fixes come with tradeoffs.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #48
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    Price is an issue, but you waste $5 at McDonald’s too, or Starbucks for you bourgeois, lasts about as long as the read, and anybody who feels intimidated by #765 of a particular book instead of a new #1 is a dope. Any book can be someone’s first. Avengers 151 was one of my first. Liked it enough to track down issues on both sides of the number. I wasn’t worried about how Cap and the crew got there, it was the hunt to find out how that was fun, and encouraged me to keep on, and buy the next issue, and so on. Pretty simple. Then it was Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, The Hulk, X-Men #128 was a cool cover, (Wolverine in the sewers if I remember right,). It speaks more to the lack of attention span and a lack of creativity these days.

  4. #49
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    In fairness I wouldn't say its the audiences lack of attention span so much as there is a lot more vying for that attention. When Avengers 151 came out issues were also written for casual kids to pick up for a quarter in a gas station or supermarket. They had ongoing storylines to satisfy long-time readers, but also made efforts to make sure each story was more or less self-contained (beginning, middle, end). Not always, but mostly. There was no "writing for the trade" as you get today, where you can truly be lost if you pick up even issue 2 or 3 in a storyline because of the way the story is formatted and the assumption that you have already read number 1 by the writers.

    You had a few channels on the TV, no internet (where you can download/read comics for cheap or free depending on how you feel about pirating), and there was a robust industry of printing material that would allow for cheap production of comics. Not to mention all of the issues already brought up about specialty shops and the move away from mass market floppies. If I'm a kid who can watch a Youtube video that takes as long as a comic to read and is just as entertaining (depending on the video and comic) and is free, or find free web comics, or buy video games that can have more bang for your buck (depending on how long you enjoy them), or a thousand other things what's the appeal of buying a graphic novel or single issues that I have to hunt down? To get to know the characters in Disney movies better? I can find videos that go into that which would save me decades of reading. Or articles/blogs.

    Again, I believe the hobby of reading printed comic material is dying and comics will be better off when they make the move to strictly digital. I don't want that, I'm an old man used to holding the issue/trade in my hand and flipping the pages (even like the smell). But it's just not sustainable. Manga might last a little longer because they've done a better job with their product, but it too will move online-only at some point. And that's probably a good thing, if you want kids to enjoy this stuff too. They're not coming to it as is. You can try to reformat it or make it cheaper and it still isn't going to work.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    None of these are actual problems.
    Honestly quality wise I would argue that they are. DC lacks a strong hand leading the ship with a consistent vision and is constantly changing gears trying to catch a wave. Marvel has that strong hand but because of the company that owns it, it is getting more and more sanitized.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    3. Not enough diversity. All other forms of entertainment have learnt and understood that diversity in an increasingly diverse society is absolutely necessary to survival. But instead of creating more diverse characters and pushing them out, the big two simply doubled down on their existing portfolio completely ignoring real demographic change. How can a medium that appeals to young people with majority of characters being white really be successful in a society where majority of the population under a certain age isn’t even white? It doesn’t make any sense. Marvel and DCs solution to this has been somewhat inelegant because they basically had to start changing existing characters race and sexuality to appeal but this isn’t always the best way and can create friction.
    They were imo actually creating a lot of "diverse" characters, if you look at all the new characters DC and Marvel created in the past decade almost non of the where "straight white males".

    The thing is just that the majority of their paying customers are not interested in any new characters (divers or not).

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    They were imo actually creating a lot of "diverse" characters, if you look at all the new characters DC and Marvel created in the past decade almost non of the where "straight white males".

    The thing is just that the majority of their paying customers are not interested in any new characters (divers or not).
    Brand new diverse characters? I can only think of a handful and they were mainly at Marvel. DC tried with a few- Silencer and some others but they are all in limbo now.

    Majority of ANAD Marvel were race bent and gender bent characters which long-term was kind of a waste of time because the originals were always going to return. Falcon isn't Cap anymore, Jane Foster isn't Thor anymore, Cho isn't Hulk anymore etc.

    The only new minority characters that have stood the test of time were Miles Morales and Kamala Khan and they weren't race bent. We need more of these and less temporary replacements.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Brand new diverse characters? I can only think of a handful and they were mainly at Marvel. DC tried with a few- Silencer and some others but they are all in limbo now.
    And if they had tried more most of them would also be in Limbo.
    The problem is not that they don't create these characters, the problem is that don't know how to sell them. And they can't keep publishing books indefinitely that don't sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Majority of ANAD Marvel were race bent and gender bent characters which long-term was kind of a waste of time because the originals were always going to return. Falcon isn't Cap anymore, Jane Foster isn't Thor anymore, Cho isn't Hulk anymore etc.
    A temporary replacement is not the same as race or gender bending a character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The only new minority characters that have stood the test of time were Miles Morales and Kamala Khan and they weren't race bent. We need more of these and less temporary replacements.
    Kamala Khan sales took btw. also anose dive after Civil War II and have afaik not really recovered.

    And really the vast majority of characters they created in the last years (replacement or original) have been diverse.

  9. #54

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    DC has more problems than Marvel due to ownership, but they both have to...

    1) Continue to adapt and branch out into multimedia as a result of declining revenue that is plaguing the print industry, largely as a result of piracy.

    2) Make digital print more accessible when you purchase it, because most teens and young adults find it easier to go to a piracy sight, and I don't think it's legally possible to shut them down.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    And if they had tried more most of them would also be in Limbo.
    The problem is not that they don't create these characters, the problem is that don't know how to sell them. And they can't keep publishing books indefinitely that don't sell.

    A temporary replacement is not the same as race or gender bending a character.



    Kamala Khan sales took btw. also anose dive after Civil War II and have afaik not really recovered.

    And really the vast majority of characters they created in the last years (replacement or original) have been diverse.
    I know Ms Marvel's sales have gone down. But they should continue to relaunch it until it finds it audience again. Marvel did this with Deadpool and Captain Marvel, minority heroes shouldn't get different treatment.

    I don't agree with the premise that most of the big two's new characters with ongoings or limited series have been minorities.

    Which titles featuring new ongoing titles featuring minorities- apart from Mosaic, Silencer and Moon Girl (which was directed at younger audiences) have the big two launched? Majority of launches from the big two in the last few years have been relaunches and reboots of their existing characters, overwhelming majority of these being white heroes. I don't think DC even have a minority led title at all at the moment (if there is, I stand to be corrected).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Which titles featuring new ongoing titles featuring minorities- apart from Mosaic, Silencer and Moon Girl (which was directed at younger audiences) have the big two launched? Majority of launches from the big two in the last few years have been relaunches and reboots of their existing characters, overwhelming majority of these being white heroes. I don't think DC even have a minority led title at all at the moment (if there is, I stand to be corrected).
    I was speaking about new characters not new titles. Why should they take stop making books with their strongest selling characters.

    When it comes to DC and Minority led titles we have at the Moment Green Lantern, Far Sector and The Next Batman, and I think there is a book with the Future state Wonder Woman coming up, and you could also count the other History of the DCU.
    But DC has at the moment in general not many books with new characters.

    If we go back a little DC had for example stuff like New Superman (all chinese), Tom Taylors Run on Suicide Squad (lots of new diverse characters), Glass run on Teen Titans (there technically only diverse characters on the team), Justice League Odyssey (with Jessica Cruz as lead), Naomi ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I don't agree with the premise that most of the big two's new characters with ongoings or limited series have been minorities.
    Look how many non minorities got an ongoing or limited series, I don't think you will find many.
    Last edited by Aahz; 05-10-2021 at 01:16 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I was speaking about new characters not new titles. Why should they take stop making books with their strongest selling characters.

    When it comes to DC and Minority led titles we have at the Moment Green Lantern, Far Sector and The Next Batman, and I think there is a book with the Future state Wonder Woman coming up, and you could also count the other History of the DCU.
    But DC has at the moment in general not many books with new characters.

    If we go back a little DC had for example stuff like New Superman (all chinese), Tom Taylors Run on Suicide Squad (lots of new diverse characters), Glass run on Teen Titans (there technically only diverse characters on the team), Justice League Odyssey (with Jessica Cruz as lead), Naomi ...

    Look how many non minorities got an ongoing or limited series, I don't think you will find many.
    None of those DC titles are ongoings. Far Sector is a limited series, same with Second Son and all the Future State stuff. It was originally going to be something much further but with Didio moving out, they abandoned those plans.

    DC tried a little with the new 52 and as you rightly pointed out, some characters on their team books were fairly diverse but technically most of them weren’t new. And they were all featured in short lived team books. But i stand corrected on that.

    To your last paragraph, this just brings us back to my original point. Majority of the company’s recent launches have primarily been relaunches that have featured their traditional heroes with very little diversity in reality. The big two should have concentrated more on the bookstore market which is considerably larger than the DM and features very diverse offerings. Characters like Ms Marvel and even Coates BP may have flamed out in the direct market but they’ve been strong sellers in other markets. Hopefully Marvel moving to Penguin can help with this because the DM has pretty much reached its peak.

  13. #58
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    Edit: wrong thread
    Last edited by shooshoomanjoe; 05-10-2021 at 08:22 PM.

  14. #59
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    The push for diversity is great and long overdue, but even if they'd done this decades ago and helped build the customer base that way we'd still be looking at an extra 10-20% audience for a still-failing print periodical hobby. Again, a push for digital outlets would allow creators of all races/backgrounds a fair shot at putting their talent out there and letting it find an audience without gatekeepers deciding. They might not get to work on a Batman title right away, but I guarantee you if they have a following online they'd get interest. Probably a lot more than if they currently have a job on the print books.

    If they can figure out a way to make money off of it (donations/Patreon sort of deal) they might not even need to get a high profile book. Or again, come to that assignment if they want it knowing DC needs them more than the other way around. Or you could have a healthy side business of people willing to create the equivalent of a "fan-fic" book Marvel or DC could allow on their site to allow people to get their names/talent out there. It'd probably have to be reviewed by someone (which would cost money), wouldn't want some elements (your Rule 34/graphic violence/racism/etc.) but if done correctly could benefit the companies and talent alike.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I know Ms Marvel's sales have gone down. But they should continue to relaunch it until it finds it audience again. Marvel did this with Deadpool and Captain Marvel, minority heroes shouldn't get different treatment.

    I don't agree with the premise that most of the big two's new characters with ongoings or limited series have been minorities.

    Which titles featuring new ongoing titles featuring minorities- apart from Mosaic, Silencer and Moon Girl (which was directed at younger audiences) have the big two launched? Majority of launches from the big two in the last few years have been relaunches and reboots of their existing characters, overwhelming majority of these being white heroes. I don't think DC even have a minority led title at all at the moment (if there is, I stand to be corrected).
    I had a feeling that was going to happen to her eventually because they really didn't focus on giving her a rogue's gallery, and her supporting cast outside of other supers is minimal. A supporting cast is what separates an interesting character from a franchise. This is a problem with a lot of new characters.

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