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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Like, even if we spot every single WW2 fighter planes the ability to trade blows on better than even grounds with TIE Fighters, there's really no reason why TIE Fighters would ever need to engage in dogfights with planes that wouldn't be able to be alerted, scrambled, and get within targeting range in the time it took the SW forces to have arrived at their target, blasted it at their leisure, then be on the other side of the planet to either return home (where they would be protected by the Star Destroyer's force fields, or go to yet another target.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    Considering that he's seriously talking about WW2 fighters picking stuff up on RADAR?

    Edit: Just to note they did actually exist at that point, but in incredibly small numbers, and were so bulky and cumbersome to be limited entirely to night raids
    assuming that all of the major combatants felt the need to attack this star destroyer...

    when I wrote about the use of radar I was not intending to say that WW2 fighters actually had them as standard equipment. I assumed that the posters here would at least be knowledgeable of basic WW2 details like how radar networks were used to command/control large formations of aircraft. are we just ignoring the fact that every major nation at war in 1944 had large radar networks designed to pick up enemy aerial intrusions and direct interceptor aircraft accordingly? just one casual look at any SW 'aircraft' would show that they are not the least bit 'stealthy'. are TIE fighters invisible to these large radar networks? even if they were, there would still be sound-location techniques that could be used to track their movements.

    last I checked TIE fighters don't actually have shields of any kind. I thought they might, but apparently they don't. based on demonstrated 'feats' EVERY single time TIE fighter comes into contact with a large solid object they tend get destroyed, or at least to come out of it very badly.

    they are also optimized for non-atmospheric deep space flight. TIE fighters would have to overcome an amazing amount of induced drag just to get around. they might be able to turn on a dime in space, but in an atmosphere they're not going to be as agile.

    most sources I've looked at only have TIE fighters flying around 750 mph within atmospheric contexts. while that should make them comfortably immune to interception via direct pursuit it DOES NOT make them invisible to land-based radar networks, or prevent people from vectoring large groups of fighters to intercept them while they are on the way to their targets (presumably escorting TIE bombers)

    if the speed of 750 to 780 mph is considered canonical... that puts TIE fighters at slower traveling speed than most anti-aircraft weapons of the period! just take the ubiquitous Oerlikon 20 mm cannon. that had a muzzle velocity of roughly 800 to 1000 meters per second (aka 2700-3400 feet per second). that means that most of the guns firing at these TIE fighters have projectiles flying about 3 times faster than the TIE fighters can move. and, unlike X-Wings, they won't be hampered by an incredibly slow rate of fire. they will be firing hundreds of shells per second at speeds that SHOULD very easily over-take the demonstrated limitations of TIE fighters operating within the confines of atmospheres. this isn't even getting into the medium guns like the Flak 18 88 mm, 90 mm M1 AA artillery, or QF 3.7-inch gun.

    we have repeatedly been shown that starships do NOT travel as fast inside of atmospheres as they do in outer space. assuming that they're made out of amazing, extremely rugged fantasy metals will certainly make them harder to shoot down. but TIE fighters, like Stormtroopers, have a pretty strong reputation as cannon fodder.

    I still don't believe that TIE fighters are a winning hand in this scenario. they will inevitably be put to good use, I'm sure... but they're not overcoming odds of roughly 5,000 to 1 against them.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    More interesting is the fact that he argued that burying a bomb designed to detonate on impact after falling from the sky, under the ground, would be a viable strategy without needing to change the way the bomb, well, explodes.

    Or the fact that they sited a uh... WW1 mine detonation that was a spectacular failure. The German defenses holding and the French suffering 11,000+ casualties. Probably not good to use metrics from the wrong war, that failed, to shore up the argument that a WW2 Earth can fight off futuristic (relative to us, even if poorly designed) tech.
    the Japanese submerged aerial bombs beneath the ground and modified them to be used as anti-tank mines on Okinawa. these were capable of blasting M4 Sherman tanks several feet up into the air and completely disabling them. it's not as though it were impossible to change how the bomb gets used (and fused). these sorts of improvised explosive devices should be quite effective at knocking out a variety of Imperial ground forces.

    you can look at Roy Appleton's book on Okinawa - he explains this on page 173

    the larger point of mentioning the mine is this: AT-ATs have been shown to be disabled by tripping and falling in multiple films. using high explosives to render terrain impassable to AT-ATs is completely possible.

    consider the context and intent: the use of mines generally failed when used in the context of infantry/trench warfare in WW1 because they were unable to properly capitalize on the 'shock and awe' of the mine explosion. infantry couldn't advance quickly enough through the obliterated terrain to maximize the shock of the explosions on disoriented enemy troops. in this case, the mines would be utilized for a VERY DIFFERENT PURPOSE. if nothing else, even if the trap was detected they would have to spend time neutralizing it, or simply move around, at which point this would make them vulnerable to ambushes.

  4. #34
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    additionally 10,000 combat effectives for the Empire ground personnel is NOT very much in this context. if the grounded Imperial Star Destroyer doesn't make friends with at least one nation in Europe they will most certainly die.

    again, assuming that they choose to remain on hostile terms with everybody... they are up against MILLIONS of potential enemies.

    to make matters worse, blaster bolts are pretty slow. the general consensus earlier in the forums was that blaster bolts travel about as fast as arrow. this puts the Stormtroopers at an enormous disadvantage when dealing with pretty much... everybody in the world.

    stormtrooper armor is legendarily useless against... just about everything. even sticks, rocks, and just about any other type of weapon being used against them. I guess their armor protects them from shell fragments and knives... but, it doesn't appear to do anything about getting hit by 10 pound rocks thrown by slings and catapults. and that's quite a bit less kinetic energy when compared to your average WWII rifle or grenade.

    while they will be able to procure some provisions - they just don't have the numbers to safely resupply all of those roughly 50,000 troops consistently. we're talking about hundreds of tons (if not thousands of tons) of provisions per month even if we exclude all things related to combat. and if the useful payload of those armored transports is 50 tons and the shuttles is a mere 80 tons... well, these guys are completely screwed! they HAVE to make an alliance with somebody important or they'll die of starvation at the end of two years. even if all they did was make dozens of raids a day trying to steal supplies they wouldn't have enough to keep themselves alive after their provisions ran out. sure, they might be able to fight it out and steal a couple of months worth of provisions... but, eventually, they won't be able to keep up with their supply needs alone.

  5. #35
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    The ship's weapons are all line of sight? They don't have any missiles of mass destruction that can threaten cities?

    Do the fighters and other flying equipment have any weapons of mass destruction? Otherwise, they don't have the damage capacity to do much. The fighting countries took tremendous aerial heavy damage and kept on fighting.

    The ground forces are trivial also compared to the millions of available troops. The whole area can be surrounded with mines outside of the range of the ship's weaponery. The walkers are joke as their height makes them easy to see and vulnerable to indirect artillery fire. Are they immune to such, I doubt it.

    Whether the prop fighters can take the TIEs is interesting, they will be swarmed by thousands of planes and with just lasers when they come in to ground attack, they are vulnerable.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    assuming that all of the major combatants felt the need to attack this star destroyer...

    when I wrote about the use of radar I was not intending to say that WW2 fighters actually had them as standard equipment. I assumed that the posters here would at least be knowledgeable of basic WW2 details like how radar networks were used to command/control large formations of aircraft. are we just ignoring the fact that every major nation at war in 1944 had large radar networks designed to pick up enemy aerial intrusions and direct interceptor aircraft accordingly? just one casual look at any SW 'aircraft' would show that they are not the least bit 'stealthy'. are TIE fighters invisible to these large radar networks? even if they were, there would still be sound-location techniques that could be used to track their movements.

    last I checked TIE fighters don't actually have shields of any kind. I thought they might, but apparently they don't. based on demonstrated 'feats' EVERY single time TIE fighter comes into contact with a large solid object they tend get destroyed, or at least to come out of it very badly.

    they are also optimized for non-atmospheric deep space flight. TIE fighters would have to overcome an amazing amount of induced drag just to get around. they might be able to turn on a dime in space, but in an atmosphere they're not going to be as agile.

    most sources I've looked at only have TIE fighters flying around 750 mph within atmospheric contexts. while that should make them comfortably immune to interception via direct pursuit it DOES NOT make them invisible to land-based radar networks, or prevent people from vectoring large groups of fighters to intercept them while they are on the way to their targets (presumably escorting TIE bombers)

    if the speed of 750 to 780 mph is considered canonical... that puts TIE fighters at slower traveling speed than most anti-aircraft weapons of the period! just take the ubiquitous Oerlikon 20 mm cannon. that had a muzzle velocity of roughly 800 to 1000 meters per second (aka 2700-3400 feet per second). that means that most of the guns firing at these TIE fighters have projectiles flying about 3 times faster than the TIE fighters can move. and, unlike X-Wings, they won't be hampered by an incredibly slow rate of fire. they will be firing hundreds of shells per second at speeds that SHOULD very easily over-take the demonstrated limitations of TIE fighters operating within the confines of atmospheres. this isn't even getting into the medium guns like the Flak 18 88 mm, 90 mm M1 AA artillery, or QF 3.7-inch gun.

    we have repeatedly been shown that starships do NOT travel as fast inside of atmospheres as they do in outer space. assuming that they're made out of amazing, extremely rugged fantasy metals will certainly make them harder to shoot down. but TIE fighters, like Stormtroopers, have a pretty strong reputation as cannon fodder.

    I still don't believe that TIE fighters are a winning hand in this scenario. they will inevitably be put to good use, I'm sure... but they're not overcoming odds of roughly 5,000 to 1 against them.
    It's almost as if you're just not even considering what the other side is capable of and instead are doubling down on your bad arguments.

    A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one. Do continue.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  7. #37
    A Zest 4 KungFu Treachery Darth Drizzle's Avatar
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    Why are people assuming that every attack vehicle doesn't have targeting? Almost every vehicle has targeting systems besides some TIE fighters and even then their ammunition isn't small metal pieces, but energy blasts that blow up on contact. The Air battles are always going to be a win for the Imperial Forces no matter how you try and frame it.

    Also the AT ATs have a huge targeting Advantage as they can spot and snipe enemies long before they get into their effective targeting range. They arrive by transport ship that has sheilding and TIE/Lambada air support so no shooting it down and from there they wreak havoc on whatever forces they are targeting on that mission, then leave. If you are basing the entirety of your knowledge of the Ewok fight you misrepresenting the military force the ATs are and the dominance they brought throughout Galaxies, so lining miles of land with mines is a waste of time when they can be picked up/dropped in strategic places at will and can attack at ranges far beyond what WW2 era ground weapons can attack from.
    Last edited by Darth Drizzle; 05-13-2021 at 01:01 PM.
    And with that the rest of the Domino's will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

  8. #38
    Voice of the Authorities Cleric of Hell’s Brigade's Avatar
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    What’s the actual blaster range on ATAT’s?
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    What’s the actual blaster range on ATAT’s?
    I've seen 5-10 Kilometers in some places, but I can't find them right now.

    But a good quote from Luke Skywalker when responding to another Pilot saying "Look at them, they're just big fat Targets!" Luke response was "I know, but they got a Long reach".

    Plus they had a Holographic Targeting system and 360° long range sensors on all models to go with 2 Heavy cannons(on the head) that would destroy any/all vehicles or structures hit by it, 4 medium blasters with 360° targeting capabilities that would destroy anything they hit, and 2 light cannons for fast flying A Wings/X Wings that they routinely shot out of the air at long and short ranges.

    And they can move at 60 Kilometers an hour when needed so they were faster than Tanks of WW2, but with their Superior and unpenetrable armor they don't have to outrun anything.
    And with that the rest of the Domino's will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

  10. #40
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    What’s the actual blaster range on ATAT’s?
    Significantly less than ballistic artillery, that's for sure.
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  11. #41
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Drizzle View Post
    I've seen 5-10 Kilometers in some places, but I can't find them right now.

    But a good quote from Luke Skywalker when responding to another Pilot saying "Look at them, they're just big fat Targets!" Luke response was "I know, but they got a Long reach".

    Plus they had a Holographic Targeting system and 360° long range sensors on all models to go with 2 Heavy cannons(on the head) that would destroy any/all vehicles or structures hit by it, 4 medium blasters with 360° targeting capabilities that would destroy anything they hit, and 2 light cannons for fast flying A Wings/X Wings that they routinely shot out of the air at long and short ranges.

    And they can move at 60 Kilometers an hour when needed so they were faster than Tanks of WW2, but with their Superior and unpenetrable armor they don't have to outrun anything.
    They have literally zero feats for moving faster than like 10 km/h, much less 60. Luke caught up with one on foot. And 60km/h is barely faster than WW2 tanks. Of which there are like 600X more tanks in the european theater than there are AT AT's here.

    Their armor (or the joints) will fold like tin foil from heavy artillery. They are also sitting ducks for bombing runs involving literally hundreds or thousands of bombers - things that happened in WW2.

    The Imperial troops definitely have an air edge per unit thanks to unlimited service ceiling, better speed and such, but their ground forces are garbage, and always have been. Super useful against a village of terrified and unarmed civilians, but they will be overwhelmed by hundred thousand strong ground armies with effective supply lines, artillery, hundreds of tanks, etc. And that's that the European theater offers. Casualties will be high, but the Empire doesn't want to get into a ground war with their crappy tall fall-over special walkers.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleric of Hell’s Brigade View Post
    It is equipped with the following:

    SHIELDING
    Deflector shield generator domes (2)

    SENSOR SYSTEMS
    Long range sensor

    TARGETING SYSTEMS
    Tractor beam targeting array

    ARMAMENT
    Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolaser batteries (60)
    Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)
    Dual heavy turbolaser turrets (6)
    Dual heavy ion cannon turrets (2)
    Quad heavy turbolasers (2)
    Triple medium turbolasers (3)
    Medium turbolasers (2)
    Phylon 07 tractor beam projectors (10)

    COMPLEMENT
    TIE line starfighters (72)
    TIE/ln space superiority starfighters (48)
    TIE/sa bombers (12)
    TIE/IN interceptors (12)
    AT-AT walkers (20)
    AT-ST or AT-DP walkers (30)
    K79-S80 Imperial Troop Transports (15)
    Lambda-class T-4a shuttles (8)

    CREW
    Officers (9,235)
    Enlisted (27,850)

    PASSENGERS
    Stormtroopers (9,700)

    CONSUMABLES
    2 years

    ——————

    The above ship “crashes” on Earth (undamaged, but unable to fly into space). The place it crashes? Well......

    World War II era Earth, shortly after the invasion of Normandy. The location is somewhere between the border of France, Belgium, and Germany.

    What would happen? Is the tech difference too much to handle? Can such a small military force (in comparison) change the war outcome, and if so in what way? What would be the changes that would happen on Earth? And could WWII tech beat out the Imperial finest?
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  13. #43
    A Zest 4 KungFu Treachery Darth Drizzle's Avatar
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    Just to note from an earlier post ALL models of TIE fighters listed except for the Interceptors have Targeting Systems, and the Interceptors make up for that with Quad Cannons and much faster speeds to hunt down lighter targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    They have literally zero feats for moving faster than like 10 km/h, much less 60. Luke caught up with one on foot. And 60km/h is barely faster than WW2 tanks. Of which there are like 600X more tanks in the european theater than there are AT AT's here.

    Their armor (or the joints) will fold like tin foil from heavy artillery. They are also sitting ducks for bombing runs involving literally hundreds or thousands of bombers - things that happened in WW2.

    The Imperial troops definitely have an air edge per unit thanks to unlimited service ceiling, better speed and such, but their ground forces are garbage, and always have been. Super useful against a village of terrified and unarmed civilians, but they will be overwhelmed by hundred thousand strong ground armies with effective supply lines, artillery, hundreds of tanks, etc. And that's that the European theater offers. Casualties will be high, but the Empire doesn't want to get into a ground war with their crappy tall fall-over special walkers.
    So you think every tank that fought in WW 2 is going to be out at the same time at the same place fighting 1 ATAT? That would be horrible as they would all be bombed with Impunity from TIE bombers and every other aerial vehicle that can drop bombs or Target enemies from high above and out of reach of WW2 era planes/weaponry. Or if they are attacking the Star Destroyer itself then it's own cannons would rip them all to shreds while blocking everything they had with it's sheilds.

    No artillery would hit the Joints of AT ATs at range as 1. They would be scouted by Aerial forces and taken out before the ATs ever dropped into Battle. 2. The ATs are mobile and pin point accuracy from Artillery wasn't easy to do back then. 3. The ATs would spot and take out anyone close enough to relay it's position to Artillery teams and they do have pinpoint accuracy with Targeting Systems and high powered sensors to do it.

    Never mind the additional AT varients in play here and the Durasteel armor that was as thick as a Tank on the ATs, they would just be picking off left overs from the Aerial bombardments anyway and deployed in strategic places and not simply plopped down in the middle of 5,000 tank units and 100+ Artillery guns on a whim.
    Last edited by Darth Drizzle; 05-13-2021 at 03:23 PM.
    And with that the rest of the Domino's will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

  14. #44
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Drizzle View Post
    Just to note from an earlier post ALL models of TIE fighters listed except for the Interceptors have Targeting Systems, and the Interceptors make up for that with Quad Cannons and much faster speeds to hunt down lighter targets.



    So you think every tank that fought in WW 2 is going to be out at the same time at the same place fighting 1 ATAT? That would be horrible as hey would all be bombed with Impunity from TIE bombers and every other aerial vehicle that can drop bombs or Target enemies from high above and out of reach of WW2 era planes/weaponry or if they are attacking the Star Destroyer itself then it's own cannons would rip them all to shreds while blocking everything they had with it's sheilds.

    No artillery would hit the Joints of AT ATs at range as 1. They would be scouted by Aerial forces and taken out before the ATs ever dropped into Battle, 2 The ATs are mobile and pin point accuracy wasn't easy to do back then, and ,3. The ATs would spot and take out anyone close enough to relay it's position to Artillery teams a d they do have pinpoint accuracy with Targeting Systems and high powered sensors.

    Never mind the additional AT varients in play here and the Durasteel armor that was as thick as a Tank on the ATs, they would just be picking off left overs from the Aerial bombardments anyway and deployed in strategic places and not simply! plopped down in the middle of 5,000 tank units and 100+ Artillery guns on a whim.
    You are vastly underestimating the ridiculous advantage of numbers here. The Ties are worth a big edge in air power, but every single one is critical and they simply can't take risks with them. They cannot risk flying them into forests of AA fire. They simply have no way to recover them or get them back in the air if they are damaged. And air power is great, but you need ground forces to do much of anything - like hold territory or secure supplies, and they simply don't have that. Single battles in WW2 involved hundreds of thousands of troops, thousands of aircraft, thousands of tanks, hundreds of artillery pieces, significant AA fire, etc. The Imperial forces here could absolutely hole up, defend their position, and be relatively impregnable, but they lack completely the ability to really project power here, as they lack the bodies to do it. And that means that they are going to run out of supplies.

    If the Star Destroyer could fly, that would change a lot - that would be an aircraft carrier + landing craft on super mega Captain America level steroids. But they don't have that. They have extremely limited troop movement capacity, and they have no way at all to replace losses. 20 AT ATs wouldn't come close to surviving a medium front in WW1, much less WW2. They would do significant damage, but nowhere near enough, and every one that gets dropped would reduce the fighting force by 5%. The numbers simply do not work in their favor.
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  15. #45
    A Zest 4 KungFu Treachery Darth Drizzle's Avatar
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    The Battle favors the Imperials since they get to choose where and when to strike.

    If the Allies go to the Star Destroyer then they all get blasted away by it's many overly powerful weapons without ever scratching the paint on it. Which means the Imperials will be the ones flying recon missions further and further away from the Star Destroyer and mapping out unit positions as there would be no hiding the number of troops moving from place to place.

    Then they go back and relay that info to the Star Destroyer who sends out Aerial fighters for bombing runs that take out basically everything they need to from untouchable positions up high. Then with the main Artillery/Offensive units destroyed then the ATs and accompanying units are dropped down to clean up the rest. As the ATs and varients carry some smaller vehicles and a dozen or so Troopers they could assist with ground clean up but really they wouldn't even be needed in any scenario that isn't a kidnapping or hostage taking of high up Commanders.

    I just can't see any scenario where the Imperials who have unmatchable mobility in Deployment and Recovery of forces are ever outnumber or out gunned as they have the advantage of scouting and knowing where and how many troops they are going to face. The Allies can't ever match their response times or put together a force to counter whatever the Imperials are using as they can't mobilize fast enough to do much or anything as they Imperials attack and sweep up a Battle before any back up units from the Allies arrive.
    Last edited by Darth Drizzle; 05-13-2021 at 03:21 PM.
    And with that the rest of the Domino's will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

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