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  1. #61
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    if that solitary Star Destroyer could actually fly around the planet at will inside the atmosphere, or from orbit in space, a lot of the pro-Imperial arguments would have more justification.

    then they really COULD go where they choose, strike where the wish, and dictate the terms of battle. they could actually barter their military services in exchange for supplies and a place to stay.

    based on the declared limitations of the OP... I think it's pretty clear that they CAN'T do this. they can't fight battles of their own choosing, and fight them on their own terms. they would be stuck in a single spot, and eventually forced to fight on terms favorable to the Earth's ground forces.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Smith View Post
    IIRC, the Walkers couldn't deal with little tiny fliers roping them like calves at the 4H children's events. Thus, from feats, they are not dealing with hundreds of fighters. A grenade blows them up.



    As an aside, in Turtledove's Lizard WWII books, one of their grounded starships was blown up by a long range German gun. Their antimissile defenses tracked it and then were useless as they were designed for fragile missiles, not heavy metal.

    Where is the info that the Star Destroyer holds enough nuclear level bombs to significantly degrade the productive power of the world?

    The troopers and that two legged walker against the Ewoks answers the infantry question. Nor do the Walkers have anything to deal with indirect fire weapons, not enough of them to deal with 3000 Tigers and T-34s. Aerially scattered mines around the perimeter of the ship stops them cold.

    If the ship landed in 1990's, Europe about a thousand tactical nukes could glass a perimeter around it. Jets of those days would take out any atmospheric craft.

    The point that Rebel fighters could strafe Empire Antiaircraft guns successfully doesn't point to superior defenses.
    As I said before if your entire knowledge of ATs is from the Ewok fight then your misrepresenting the ATs entirely.

    Again what scenario has thousands of Soldiers and a single AT walked fighting at the same time? Name one scenario where this is happening after reading how and when they are deployed.

    Geraman guns do nothing to the Star Destroyer and Artillery is taken out by bombers before they do anything and again is seen by sensors.

    Also why are Imoerial nukes needed? I don't understand that line of questioning.

    Also again with the mines? How do they come into play at all when most of the Imperial forces use Aerial raids and planes getting close to the SD are blown away easily?
    And with that the rest of the Domino's will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

  3. #63
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    Good points. Also with 9,800 soldiers you are not taking over a city of any size. I don't see troopers carrying supplies in any movie. Time for lunch. Where is the logistic train to supply them anywhere? Could their armor resist high power up to 20mm Sniper AP rounds?

    Walkers in the mud fields of Spring Europe would be fun. Watch the feet pick up clumps and clumps. I've tracked through such mud. Wouldn't want to be a trooper in that outfit in that mud.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Drizzle View Post
    As I said before if your entire knowledge of ATs is from the Ewok fight then your misrepresenting the ATs entirely.

    Again what scenario has thousands of Soldiers and a single AT walked fighting at the same time? Name one scenario where this is happening after reading how and when they are deployed.

    Geraman guns do nothing to the Star Destroyer and Artillery is taken out by bombers before they do anything and again is seen by sensors.

    Also why are Imoerial nukes needed? I don't understand that line of questioning.

    Also again with the mines? How do they come into play at all when most of the Imperial forces use Aerial raids and planes getting close to the SD are blown away easily?
    Captain Smith: IRC, the Walkers couldn't deal with little tiny fliers roping them like calves at the 4H children's events. Thus, from feats, they are not dealing with hundreds of fighters. A grenade blows them up

    this 'roping them like calves' sounds suspiciously like the Battle of Hoth...

    as per mines. Captain Smith never mentioned them before. I believe Captain Smith is probably referencing a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MINE than the ones I was talking about. I could be wrong, but perhaps he is thinking of the Germans using butterfly bombs (aka mines). they could lay these things out hundreds at a time, and from thousands of feet in the air. these could be used to deny large areas to infantry movement. one of these mines could easily disable a Stormtrooper in one of several ways. firstly, by blowing up and injuring them. secondly, the bomb gets discovered and has to be safely disabled and removed. that takes time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Bomb

    these bombs are used primarily to prevent enemies from moving through, or using particular areas. in other words, if the Empire decides that they want to use an airport or a highway to unload supplies... these small bombs can be used to cover the area, denying the the ability to safely use the area without cleaning them up. Butterfly bombs were primarily anti-infantry weapons... but could also be used against tanks. if a weapon is powerful enough to knock out a tank - it's probably powerful enough to kill a Stormtrooper even though they are wearing body-armor.

  5. #65
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    to revisit my arguments based on rate of fire.

    the BEST fighter pilots in the world have recorded accuracy rates under combat conditions of roughly 20%. that means that even the best-of-the-very-best tend to miss 4 out of 5 shots.

    look at Darth Vader, who was considered one of the best fighter pilots in the galaxy - and he actually falls pretty closely in line with that statistic. yes, he managed to shoot down, what was it... five or seven aircraft in a single sortie? that's really good. but Darth Vader isn't here. so, we have to consider the ability of the pilots on hand. so, the average figure is probably more like 10% accuracy for an average level of pilot skill.

    rate of fire, time on target, and weight of fire are all decisive factors when attacking ground targets.

    the Imperial fighters and bombers have such a low rate of fire that they just won't be able to cripple enough ground targets fast enough.

    now, if EVERY Imperial starfighter or bomber pilot were as good as Darth Vader... then we'd have something interesting... but they're not. and they are going up against thousands of the most experienced, battle-hardened, and accomplished combat pilots the world has ever seen. and the Imperial pilots will be using the exact same playbook moves that every good pilot will already know... because everything we're shown in Star Wars is based on WW2 fighter pilot movies and conventions. I mean, we probably never even see them doing a High Yo-Yo, a Lag Displacement Roll, or even a basic Thatch Weave (aka bracket attack).

    case in point, most air forces at this time could mount high velocity rockets that used super-heated metal shape charges to melt their way through concrete bunkers and plate steel. sure, it's not the same kind of "plasma" we seen thrown about in Star Wars... but I have to think that molten metal flying at you at hundreds of miles an hour is going to leave a mark on Imperial ground forces.

    they CAN'T just turtle up and hide under the protective shield of the Star Destroyer as an impenetrable safe haven. if they do this then there is no way for them to actually WIN. and if Earth does choose to attack.. they're not going to just do it with a tiny handful of people. they'll be attacking with hundreds of thousands of men, machines, artillery, aircraft, and what-not from every direction.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Like, Earth forces start to put up AA defenses around the Star Destroyer and Imperial Forces would clearly see them with their vastly superior sensors and send out a squadron of TIE fighters to annihilate them and then spend a few days blowing up power plants in the countries that attacked them as retaliation.

    Heck, they don't even need to necessarily return immediately to the SD since WW2 era Earth has no way to reliably track them or catch up to them if they decide to blow up a few small towns across a few continents, loot their grocery stores, then camp out on the top of Mt. Everest or something, rinse and repeat, ad nauseum.
    I dunno, how can you miss hundreds of guys wearing white PVC plastic armor? how about 100-foot tall walking metal walkers that can be heard marching miles away? or giant spaceships that look like bowties and make screeching noises when they fly around? it's not like the world doesn't have telephones, radios, radar, telegraphs, newspapers, etc to help keep people informed of constantly changing situations. and if the Imperials decide to give up their white armor, so as to avoid being obvious enemies... then they give up a lot of the built-in protective advantages.

    I will say this, though. if every Imperial trooper has a wrist-watch that allows them to communicate with each other... that is a fantastic command-and-control advantage... assuming that they demonstrate even basic competency in battle. but I don't think that's enough to compensate being outnumbered 40,000 to 1.

  7. #67
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    gotta admit... it seems like a lot of the arguments in favor of this stranded solitary Star Destroyer conquering the world seems to boil down to
    "LOLNOPE, cuz its Star Wars, bro!"

    there's a reason I spent so much time explaining how much time, effort, and space it would require for the Star Destroyer to get their own provisions. because 80% of your army is not directly involved in fighting. it's that missing 80% of logistical support that leaves the Star Destroyer doomed to fail when their two years of provisions runs out.

    again, IF this Star Destroyer could fly about freely AND form an alliance... then they would have a pretty good range of options for producing a favorable outcome for themselves. I daresay that they would do very well. but this insistence that they could take on the entire world and conquer it within two years is absolutely crazy.

  8. #68
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    I couldn't find a clear blue print of the weapons distribution of the Star destroyer as you would with a modern naval ship, so here goes. From what I could see if grounded, you may have weapons along the edge blocked, depending how the ship settled. The rear facing or forward facing guns may not not give clear 360 deg. fields of fire. If you have clear picture of such and not just a verbal description, like to see it.

    Also, the bays of the ship seem to be on the underside, correct me if I am wrong, so how are the flying thingees getting out, if the ship is flat. Now if I have the layout wrong, sorry. The blue print pictures a quick search produced were pretty crappy.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    I dunno, how can you miss hundreds of guys wearing white PVC plastic armor? how about 100-foot tall walking metal walkers that can be heard marching miles away? or giant spaceships that look like bowties and make screeching noises when they fly around? it's not like the world doesn't have telephones, radios, radar, telegraphs, newspapers, etc to help keep people informed of constantly changing situations. and if the Imperials decide to give up their white armor, so as to avoid being obvious enemies... then they give up a lot of the built-in protective advantages.

    I will say this, though. if every Imperial trooper has a wrist-watch that allows them to communicate with each other... that is a fantastic command-and-control advantage... assuming that they demonstrate even basic competency in battle. but I don't think that's enough to compensate being outnumbered 40,000 to 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    gotta admit... it seems like a lot of the arguments in favor of this stranded solitary Star Destroyer conquering the world seems to boil down to
    "LOLNOPE, cuz its Star Wars, bro!"

    there's a reason I spent so much time explaining how much time, effort, and space it would require for the Star Destroyer to get their own provisions. because 80% of your army is not directly involved in fighting. it's that missing 80% of logistical support that leaves the Star Destroyer doomed to fail when their two years of provisions runs out.

    again, IF this Star Destroyer could fly about freely AND form an alliance... then they would have a pretty good range of options for producing a favorable outcome for themselves. I daresay that they would do very well. but this insistence that they could take on the entire world and conquer it within two years is absolutely crazy.
    Regarding supply chains, they have ships that can reach any place on the planet within minutes and has transport ships capable of carrying AT-ATs. How on Earth is WW2 era Earth going to stop them from looting small towns or even massive supply depots far away from any military resistance at will? In the time it takes them to report the attack and for WW2 era Earth forces to scramble a response, they've already put 9 timezones between them and started attacking and/or looting whatever they want again, rinse and repeat, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

    Also, what is WW2 Earth going to do against a force that could disrupt their own supply chains and infrastructure at will and be on the other side of the planet by the time any response comes? Are you telling me that collapsing a few buildings in the middle of major metropolitan centers, strafing random occupied capital buildings for extended periods, blowing up telegraph lines/power plants/dams/water treatment facilities/highways/railroads/etc..., and directly attacking military bases and aircraft carriers at will and getting out of dodge before any military response can get within range is going to be particularly difficult for the TIE fighters to do, or particularly easy for Earth forces to recover from? How much of the US is going to be without power for how long before they decide to surrender? How many of their politicians would be crushed underneath collapsing masonry? What about the UK, Spain, or Germany?

    Like, I'm generally among the first people to point out that Star Wars tech, as depicted, doesn't seem to be designed to be super effective in space fights, but in this particular case, the sheer ridiculous sensor and travel speed advantages of the TIE fighters and the Galactic Empire's cheerful support of war crimes means that they could be hitting any countries that annoy them with multiple Pearl Harbor and 9/11 level attacks per day without any way to reliably counter them.

    And that's all hand waving that the Earth Forces are not going to have to deal with the potential ramifications of this being a representative of a Galactic Empire with planet destroying technology for this scenario.

  10. #70
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    144 Fighters flying 24/7 are not going to disrupt the supply lines of the world unless they have the equivalent of nuclear weapons. Strafing with lasers isn't going to cut it. What is the range of the fighters' guns in atmosphere? Do they have to get in the range of AA guns?

    The British absorbed more than a 1000 V2s and didn't give up. As we pointed out, when the Troopers land, they are in a world of hurt.

    Sorry, you don't understand warfare and logistics as pointed out in detail previously.

    Also, let's answer my point that the fliers are underneath the landed ship? Am I wrong on this?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Regarding supply chains, they have ships that can reach any place on the planet within minutes and has transport ships capable of carrying AT-ATs.
    really? based on the OP they only have T-4 shuttles and the K79 troop carriers that are specifically designed as transports. they aren't given any Titan dropships to quickly move those AT-ATs. besides, the dropships are designed to deploy AT-ATs to a planet surface from space. they also don't have access to Gozanti assault carriers either.

    the only transports they DO have can't carry the AT-ATs anywhere!

    even if we assume that they could carry that much weight. they don't have cargo holds large enough to contain the walkers. and slinging them under the fuselage and carrying them on their belly isn't really a great option either. that would require hours of jerry-rigging high-strength steel cables at critical support points. then they'd have to test that out for short distances to see how safely they can move the walkers. since there are no hard-points and connectors installed they would have to wrap them around the fuselage of the shuttle. this would most certainly interfere with the shuttle's folding wing landing attempt. so, then you're stuck hovering in place while people try to disconnect the cables.

    all of this would take at least 45 minutes on either end of the lift by a highly-trained crew of cargo handlers... all of this assumes that they even have cables strong enough to safely secure the weight of the AT-AT to the fuselage of the shuttle... and that said cables won't come off during flight.

    LOL, and since none of that has been shown in a Star Wars film that's not even an option, is it?

    that means the AT-ATs need to WALK out of the Star Destroyer to proceed to their objectives. that limits ALL of their action to places that can be reached by land via continental Europe.

    that also means that they have to cross dozens of rivers via bridge, or by simply fording through them. and everybody sees them as a hostile threat that needs to be contained, then they are most certainly going to blow up every bridge that enables the Empire to launch attacks further into Europe.

    this means that the Imperial ground forces are probably not even getting past the Meuse, Seine, and Moselle rivers! not without the help of Imperial engineers (which they are not given, by the way) repairing existing bridges, or building new bridges from scratch.

    and those materials to repair the blown up bridges is going to come from where, now? naturally, they'd have to find the locations where all of those resources are and simply blast their way through to get those materials. which would be a piece of cake, if a LOT of those materials and resources weren't on the other side of the rivers they now can't cross because those bridges have been blown up!

  12. #72
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    okay, let's be optimistic.

    they have 15 K-79 transports (10 + 6)

    assume that a K79 transport is loaded with 10 troops inside, and 6 other troops clinging for dear life as it travels 90 mph from Beauvais to Paris. suppose that this is a distance of 50 miles. let's assume that NOBODY takes any notice of this activity and does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to interfere.

    it takes an 82 minutes to drive that distance by car at 80 kph. great. if the K79 travels 150 kph we can cut that travel down time roughly 40 minutes or drive time. let's suppose these disciplined troops only need 10 minutes to prep before the trip, and 10 minutes to clear the vehicle when they leave. that's 60 minutes to move 240 battle troops with NO additional supplies. it's going to take another 50 minutes for that empty transport to rush back and get another batch of guys. so that's 120 minutes round-trip.

    repeat that and we've got 480 troops in four hours.

    38 trips would be required to move all of these soldiers via ground transports. that means it would take them over 60 hours to move their entire fighting force 50 miles from Beauvais to Paris.

    now, if these troops marched on foot it would take those 9000 guys about three days to get there. or, roughly 72 hours. hmm, not a huge improvement!

    let's suppose that the shuttles can really fly 528 mph in the atmosphere.

    20 passengers, 10 minutes to load the passengers, 10 minutes of flight time, 10 minutes to disembark, 10 minutes to fly back.
    total time = 40 minutes
    160

    you would need 57 flights to move all of your troops. this would still take about 10 hours to assemble your entire fighting force.

    that means, in a best case scenario where all of this takes place with NOBODY NOTICING AND OPPOSING YOU AT ALL, that your guys in shiny white armor will be standing in one place for 10 hours before your entire force is assembled.

    the second best alternative takes about three days... whether they wait to get driven to the objective or simply walk on foot.

    to put this in perspective, ANY competent general for ANY army in the world in 1944 could have matched this accomplishment.

    this is why I said that the Star Destroyer DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH TRANSPORTS for them to effectively project their power to the fullest.

    now, if they had 50 K79 transports or 18 shuttles then we could seriously talk about the Empire being able to project their power faster than anybody in the world could react to. but they don't have that many transports! so they're stuck with the scenarios I just described.

    even if they split the difference they're crossing 50 miles in maybe 18 hours... not that great considering they only have 9,000 guys that a fully combat-capable.

  13. #73
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    yeah... if the only way for those ships and walkers to leave the Star Destroyer is through that large opening in the belly of the ship... they may not be going anywhere!

    Attachment 109541

    I just sorta assumed that somehow they could just hover in place. come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a Star Destroyer actually land, or even just sit on the ground.

    eh, moving on.

    wasn't there a point in the story on the Mandalorian where they had to fly to the other side of the Tatooine to visit a mining town? didn't they specifically state that it would take the Razorcrest a six hour flight to get there? presumably this is because he doesn't want to leave the atmosphere. sure, the Razorcrest probably isn't as fast as TIE fighters or X-Wings... but it's definitely faster than Imperial shuttles.

    now, obviously if they leave the atmosphere they can fly much faster.

    however, there is trade-off here: if the TIE fighters really CAN move that fast, that gives away the element of surprise completely. their aircraft are going to generate a ton of disturbances in the atmosphere and look like falling meteors. look at this falling satellite debris video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXePKQSchSw

    if people can track meteors and satellites with telescopes (or even the naked eye) why couldn't they track extremely fast moving flying objects outside of the Earth's atmosphere at night? if the object is big enough, it could even be seen during the day. things in Star Wars still reflect light - and are therefore visible. the only way it would be "impossible" for the people of Earth in 1944 to track Imperial space ship movements is if we systematically blinded every human being in the world to ensure that the Empire can move completely undetected. since the OP doesn't specify blinding everybody in the world... I think we can reasonably argue that Mk.II Eyeballs are a satisfactory means of tracking Imperial movements through the air or on the ground.

    to sum up: the Empire won't even have the element of surprise even if they can fly up into space and then re-enter the Earth's atmosphere somewhere else.

    again, having the Star Destroyer stuck on the ground in a known location makes the element of surprise impossible.

    we've already demonstrated that these Imperial troops CAN'T surprise people. they CAN'T concentrate their forces quickly enough, and in numbers large enough to provide an overwhelming tactical advantage. they can only send out 500 troops at a time. to make matters worse, about 150 of those guys will arrive in shuttles and have to wait for the 350 to show up traveling on the ground. they have 144 aircraft to protect them while they wait. then, after every ground transport makes twenty trips they will have all of their troops in position at the end of roughly 24 hours. (I'm assuming that the Wookiepedia attributed speed for the K79 transport is actually 90 mph is correct)

  14. #74
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    to add another wrinkle. you would need to send out all eight of your shuttles on a roughly 450 flights (that means each pilot is flying about 56 sorties per day) with no breaks in order to move all of your 9000 troops.

    think about that for a second.

    assuming these people have a really low accident rate, let's say 2 accidents per 1000 flights... and, if we're being even more generous, let's suppose that there is only that means that pilot error and fatigue will cost you at least one whole shuttle during 3000 flights at some point during operations. even with a spectacularly low accident/pilot error rate... suppose they keep up this tempo every day for four weeks. that ends up with 12,600 flights. the Imperials are pretty much guaranteed to at least ONE shuttle a week, per week, on account of pilot error. this could be a temporary loss, because the damages could be repaired, or it could be a total write-off.

    if the accident takes place over enemy territory, while moving back between Imperial occupied territory then there is no way to safely retrieve the shuttle. you can't use your shuttles to retrieve the lost shuttle... because it's simply too big. then you're stuck trying to use those ground transports or AT-ATs to try and drag it back to safety so that it can be repaired (with parts that probably don't even exist).

    and NONE of that is factoring in the much higher probability of loss if those shuttles are actually being attacked while they're trying to land.

    even though the Me-262 was faster than anything else in the sky in 1944... they were still shot down in large numbers when attempting to take off or land. when you're trying to land a fully loaded cargo shuttle you are NOT traveling so fast that nothing on earth can shoot you. no, you're going to be slowing down so that you can safely offload your soldiers or cargo.

    consider this: the loss of even ONE shuttle cuts their ability to move troops and supplies by 12 percent. that might not seem like a big deal. this means that it takes even longer to accomplish the same task. instead of accomplishing the same task with 8 transports making 57 flights, you're now stuck with 7 transports making 64 flights, taking more time, and exposing the aircrews to an even greater likelihood to commit a potentially fatal error.

    I know that I've repeatedly been accused of doubling down on my bad arguments. but I don't see these as bad arguments. I'm talking about basic logistical realities. if this were just a matter of people slugging it out Khazan arena it might be different. as soon as we place the fight within the context of planet earth - then the Empire has to consider the limitations and realities of the SCENARIO that they're operating within.

    for those who might be curious there's a pretty good book on the complexities of aerial resupply operations:

    AIR SUPPLY OPERATIONS IN THE CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER BETWEEN 1942 AND 1945 by Major Adrian Rainer Byers is a pretty good book on the subject of air supply operations.

    you can get it Amazon in paperback for about $40. however, on Kindle it's only a dollar. it was only 167 pages long and pretty easy to read.

  15. #75
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    Is anyone even suggesting moving 9,000 stormtroopers anywhere? What is the point you are arguing against? What possible reason would they have to move 9,000 stormtroopers somewhere? Why wouldn't they fly around in their shielded lambda class shuttles and blast things with their laser cannons. Just put 11 pilot/copilot pairs on each ship and they can essentially fly around all day and blow stuff up. Blast away at bridges, power plants, food stores, ammo dumps, fuel depots, air bases, barracks, artillery pieces, tanks, seats of government, large residential structures, ships, harbors, dry docks, trainyards, roads, tunnels, bombers, factories, forests, farms, dams, large infantry formations, and any other target that strikes their fancy? Normal real world combat just doesn't contemplate an enemy with these capabilities.

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