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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    To be honest it was done, for a while toward all metahumans during Civil War. But as things goes in MU it was put under the rug and everything is fine again...Even if it shouldn't.
    The issue is that some individuals have an unchecked uncontrolled devasting power. And one can only HOPE that they have the necessary metnal fortitude, morality and skill to NOT to abuse it in DEVASTING way.
    Consider that there are quite a few metahuman, not jsut mutants albeit they have the hightst number, that can EASILY wipe out the entire earth civilization...Omni-man style.
    Remeber when Ice Man nearky caused a new glaciation, remember when Doctor Strange nearly freed Zom, whose power could tear reality asunder, rememberwhen hank created Ultron, remember when human torch unwittingly neat cause a unstable molecule apocalypse due to his attempt to exploit it(and showing that unstable molecules are SCARY AS FUCK, and Reed Richards is quite insane), remember when Hulk nearly broke the planet in half stomping very hard.
    Of course this not taking in account the villains who ACTIVELY and willingly endanger the world for the most inane reason possible. Sometimes just for shizzle.
    <some form of plagues is common, mostly because writer find hard working with physics based world endingn scenarios).
    Take in account the various, MANY otherowrldy galaxy bending being that regularly menace the universe(and only by sheer luck they did not fry the planet) and you see how CRAPSACK NIGHTMARISH WORLD MARVEL EARTH IS!!
    And yet people still live in New York there *shrug*

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Super-intelligent people like Doctor Doom or Doctor Octopus have come much closer to destroying or conquering the world than evil mutants, they have undoubtedly killed more people.

    Would it be fair to discriminate against the super-smart people at Marvel for their destructive potential?
    Would it be fair to discriminate against Doctor Doom or Doctor Octopus? Yes, I think it would be, although discriminate is the wrong word. “Defend against” would be more accurate.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Would it be fair to discriminate against Doctor Doom or Doctor Octopus? Yes, I think it would be, although discriminate is the wrong word. “Defend against” would be more accurate.
    The point is that when they discriminate against mutants because some are bad, they discriminate against bad and good too.

    Would it be ok to discriminate against Reed Richards because, hey, after all he has a genetic trait in common with Doom (Superintelligence)?

    Should Moon Girl be put in a concentration camp for the potential harm she could do with her brain?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    The point is that when they discriminate against mutants because some are bad, they discriminate against bad and good too.

    Would it be ok to discriminate against Reed Richards because, hey, after all he has a genetic trait in common with Doom (Superintelligence)?

    Should Moon Girl be put in a concentration camp for the potential harm she could do with her brain?
    If mutants and superheroes were real life — which they are NOT — then yes, forcing them all to register with the government and building Sentinels and more would be entirely within reason. This is where the mutant metaphor breaks down, which is why it probably shouldn’t be examined too closely. Society could not tolerate the likes of Phoenix or the Hulk walking around free. That’d be insane. I think “The Boys,” the comic more than the Amazon series, gets it pretty right. Society couldn’t function with people who can level cities walking around. Examining the metaphors too closely destroys the suspension of disbelief. If I fault Hickman for anything, it’s for pushing down that mutant metaphor road a bit too hard without considering some of the events leading up to where we are in the X books.
    Last edited by Brian B; 05-07-2021 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #20
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Currently:
    Orchis: based in the fear of being replaced, Orchis presents itself as merely a scientific organization (made up of scientists from such luminary organizations as SHIELD...uhhh....AIM, HAMMER, HYDRA, Weapon X and...oof...not much good there in that list...) devoted to the survival of humanity, but in reality, they are a human supremacist organization that sees nothing wrong with exterminating humanity's children, as long as humanity survives.

    Xeno: based on feelings of inadequacy leading to violence. Xeno is a more covert organization that captures mutants and mutilated them in the process of performing monstrous experiments intended to give baseline humans the powers stolen from tortured, mutilated children of humanity. Which they then use, seemingly exclusively, to hunt and capture or murder other mutants.

    Friends of Humanity: a more politically motivated hate group started by the son of two mutant villains who was mad that he wasn't a mutant, himself and decided to kill all mutants to teach them a lesson for...something. granted, his dad was Sabretooth and his mom was Mystique and that bound to mess anyone up from the get, so this could just as easily be blamed on his parents as anything else. But Greydon was a grown ass man who should have known better, but didnt care. Like the previous two, the entire organization seems to get off on the idea of slaughtering humanity's children. This is the organization you join if you want to pretend that you just want to have a safe world, but you dont 'hate' mutants. You just want them to not...exist, you know? I mean...what about safe schools for our children? Won't someone please think of the children!? (But not the ones we murder. They dont count...)

    Reavers: augmented humans who hate mutants for individual reasons. Anyone who isnt them is unworthy of life, and deserves a slow, painful death for the sin of being not white. I mean, not 'human'. And they'll completely destroy every inch of their own humanity to do it...basically, the Proud Boys of the 616.

    Purifiers: humans of the 'Christian' fundamentalist stripe who think mutants are literally demons because they have no idea how to read the Bible for themselves and trust a failed, murderous televangelist to lead them and speak the truth. Think...if Focus on the Family and the NRA had a baby with Identity Evropa.

    Sapien League: if I remember right, these are human survivors of mutant-caused tragedies who banded together to get revenge against those they believe wronged them. Sort of like if a white guy decides to shoot up a mosque in Decatur as revenge for his brother dying to an IED in Afghanistan, but a whole organization of them.

    Homines Verendi: motivated by greed and awfulness and the selfish pettiness of children with too much money and not enough discipline. Basically. The Trump kids teamed up with the lesser Kardashians and took over a 3rd world country in Asia...

    Various world governments (including the US): operating from a mindset all too familiar in today's world...'oppressed people rising up and banding together to demand respect and recognition after decades of violence and attempts at genocide against them? That threatens our status quo of exploiting those people! Kill their leaders so they go back to being afraid and useful!'

    Bonus -

    Cult of X: not a hate group...yet...but these are humans who seemingly worship mutants as gods. That could NEVER go wrong...
    That's a good breakdown, and considering how often S.H.I.E.L.D. fell to corruption before finally being formally dissolved in the aftermath of Secret Empire, I wouldn't entirely count that organization as something on the side of good and justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    To be honest it was done, for a while toward all metahumans during Civil War. But as things goes in MU it was put under the rug and everything is fine again...Even if it shouldn't.
    The issue is that some individuals have an unchecked uncontrolled devasting power. And one can only HOPE that they have the necessary metnal fortitude, morality and skill to NOT to abuse it in DEVASTING way.
    Consider that there are quite a few metahuman, not jsut mutants albeit they have the hightst number, that can EASILY wipe out the entire earth civilization...Omni-man style.
    Remeber when Ice Man nearky caused a new glaciation, remember when Doctor Strange nearly freed Zom, whose power could tear reality asunder, rememberwhen hank created Ultron, remember when human torch unwittingly neat cause a unstable molecule apocalypse due to his attempt to exploit it(and showing that unstable molecules are SCARY AS FUCK, and Reed Richards is quite insane), remember when Hulk nearly broke the planet in half stomping very hard.
    Of course this not taking in account the villains who ACTIVELY and willingly endanger the world for the most inane reason possible. Sometimes just for shizzle.
    <some form of plagues is common, mostly because writer find hard working with physics based world endingn scenarios).
    Take in account the various, MANY otherowrldy galaxy bending being that regularly menace the universe(and only by sheer luck they did not fry the planet) and you see how CRAPSACK NIGHTMARISH WORLD MARVEL EARTH IS!!
    Very good points there as well. It is rather hypocritical to fear and hate mutants for the death and destruction they (could) cause, when nonmutant superhumans --- heroes and villains alike --- can be just as dangerous, if not more so.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member jwatson's Avatar
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    One thing that always stood out to me. If it's about safety etc why do all the factions always target the least violent, or the mutant with the least potential for wide damage. In most cases that i have seen mutants being rounded up it's not like they were trying to sanction the x-men directly or go after the Storm's that could literally destroy the world with a thought, it is always the weak and the children and that kind of says a lot to me.
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  7. #22
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    One thing that always stood out to me. If it's about safety etc why do all the factions always target the least violent, or the mutant with the least potential for wide damage. In most cases that i have seen mutants being rounded up it's not like they were trying to sanction the x-men directly or go after the Storm's that could literally destroy the world with a thought, it is always the weak and the children and that kind of says a lot to me.
    Because a lot of, if not most or all, bigots are ultimately small-minded, myopic cowards, so they'll pick the ones who can't or won't fight back instead of the ones who can or will give them their well-deserved @$$-beatings. Hell, the same thing happened at the beginning of the original Civil War referenced by Baron of Faltine, when those guys at the nightclub attacked Johnny Storm as a proxy for their hatred of all superheroes/superhumans following the Stamford Incident. For better or worse, Johnny's a hero, so he wouldn't use his powers to fight back, unlike a lot of actual villains who would just stomp those attackers with no regret or remorse or second thoughts.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    One thing that always stood out to me. If it's about safety etc why do all the factions always target the least violent, or the mutant with the least potential for wide damage. In most cases that i have seen mutants being rounded up it's not like they were trying to sanction the x-men directly or go after the Storm's that could literally destroy the world with a thought, it is always the weak and the children and that kind of says a lot to me.
    Because the racists feel very strong shooting a defenseless blue boy with horns but they do not dare to do the same to Magneto, who can defend himself.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    If mutants and superheroes were real life — which they are NOT — then yes, forcing them all to register with the government and building Sentinels and more would be entirely within reason. This is where the mutant metaphor breaks down, which is why it probably shouldn’t be examined too closely. Society could not tolerate the likes of Phoenix or the Hulk walking around free. That’d be insane. I think “The Boys,” the comic more than the Amazon series, gets it pretty right. Society couldn’t function with people who can level cities walking around. Examining the metaphors too closely destroys the suspension of disbelief. If I fault Hickman for anything, it’s for pushing down that mutant metaphor road a bit too hard without considering some of the events leading up to where we are in the X books.
    Not that the giant death machines would be justified. I could buy governments investing in power nullifying tech, but there is no justifying for the creation of giant murder machines because some mutants are dangerous or don’t use there powers correctly.

  10. #25
    Spectacular Member Runarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a good breakdown, and considering how often S.H.I.E.L.D. fell to corruption before finally being formally dissolved in the aftermath of Secret Empire, I wouldn't entirely count that organization as something on the side of good and justice.



    Very good points there as well. It is rather hypocritical to fear and hate mutants for the death and destruction they (could) cause, when nonmutant superhumans --- heroes and villains alike --- can be just as dangerous, if not more so.
    I have always felt like that when it comes to the MU. Why don't the humans on that Earth base their fears on actual abilities. Instead focussing at race or origin, even in situations where that makes -zero- sense.

    Most mutants are no bigger threat than a guy with a gun, if even that. It would make much more sense if the humans and mutants began to fear super-people above a certain power-level. Superhumans are just as dangerous as 'bad' mutants.
    And the weaker mutants have way more in common with a regular human than a Franklin Richards, Xavier (Onslaught) or Jean Grey.

    Maybe this will be the result of the whole Krakoa situation. Humans begin to trust 'regular' mutants more, and mutants realise they have nothing in common with the villians and potentially planet-destroying creatures such as Magneto, Mad Jim Jaspers, etc.

  11. #26
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Not that the giant death machines would be justified. I could buy governments investing in power nullifying tech, but there is no justifying for the creation of giant murder machines because some mutants are dangerous or don’t use there powers correctly.
    Amen. If 616 humanity was more reasonable and less likely to jump to 'genocide' as a solution to all the things that scare them, we wouldn't be discussing much. Reasonable precautions and security measures are fine. Things like power dampeners (both portable individual units and larger containment cells) for threats both direct (think, Magneto) and indirect (murder-sweat boy that Wolverine killed in a cave that one time), are reasonable. 60 foot tall murder bots who hunt and kill POTENTIALLY dangerous children wherever they may hide, heedless of the damage they cause to literally everything around them that ISNT those scary, scary children is both overkill and DEEPLY stupid as a response.

    All Sentinels have EVER done is:

    * Destroy property (supposedly one of the reasons they were created was to protect humanity - and human property - from scary mutant children who might have napalm sweat, or acid tears or the urge to drink the blood of decent human babies to survive...)
    * Massacre children (human and mutant alike, or do we suppose no humans got smashed when the Sentinels attacked a crowded SoCal mall to track down the dangerous, 13 year old super terrorist threat-to-all-life that was 13 year old Jubilation Lee?)
    * Turn on their creators on more than one occasion (Most recently with Orchis' Mother Mold coming online as it plummets towards the sun and tell all who hear it that it has judged man and mutant and found them both wanting...)
    * Show mutanity that 616 Earth's Boomer generation despises their children so much that they didnt JUST destroy all the social safety nets they themselves benefitted from, crippled access to health care, and make higher education inaccessible to anyone not super rich (or willing to go into a lifetime of debt), like they did here in our world. They ALSO invented murder bots to deal with their uppity wierdo children who dare to demand a seat at the table...

    Reasonable precautions are fine. Sentinels are not, and never have been 'reasonable', especially in a world where the scariest mutant can manipulate electromagnetism on a whim...
    Last edited by zinderel; 05-08-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Sentinels exist to make Marvel's wealthy gun makers even richer thanks to the suffering of a minority.

    So, quite similar to the real arms industry.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Sentinels exist to make Marvel's wealthy gun makers even richer thanks to the suffering of a minority.

    So, quite similar to the real arms industry.
    Am I wrong, or didn't Starktech have a hand in at least one generation of murderbots? I know Shaw and Trask were the guys who basically created them, but I feel like I read once that there was Starktech in Sentinels...
    Last edited by zinderel; 05-08-2021 at 12:10 PM.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Am I wrong, or didn't Starktech have a hand in at least one generation of murderbots? I know Shaw and Trask were the guys who basically created them, but I feel like I read once that there was Starktech in Sentinels...
    Only the Sentinels of O * N * E, during Decimation. They were not used against mutants.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Not that the giant death machines would be justified. I could buy governments investing in power nullifying tech, but there is no justifying for the creation of giant murder machines because some mutants are dangerous or don’t use there powers correctly.
    The AI controlled mutant hunter robots make some sense when we think about the widespread existence of mutants with powers which can easily kill, mentaly controll, or transform normal humans, regardless of their protection (meaning they are the weakest link in a defence strategy against mutants) and how loses can be far easier replaced with machines than with men.

    A mutant kills a bunch of people for fun and hides in a building. A SWAT team is send in to capture him and next thing you know they killed each other laughing hystericaly, come out of the building again and wildly shoot at the crowd around it screaming about lizard people, turned to goo, got burned alive, became fungi controlled zombies and so on.
    And right away you have a PR nightmare, hysteria among the population, police chiefs forced to give up their job, families mourning on live TV and the mutant himself is still on the lose.

    This isn't a stand out scenario. Events like this have happend constantly in the marvel universe, over the last decades, which again shows the problem when fear of mutants is understandable, given what a single one can do with no need for any tools or industry just by existing and unlike most super villains who are anomalies created from unique circumstances, mutants have a well defined origin and they get their powers constantly at random.

    Of course this is also partialy to blame on how movies and comics have shown just how easily many mutants can wipe out entire platoons of trained soldiers or squads of policemen by themself. This week alone we have Pyro in Marauders boasting how Avalanche killed an entire commando unit and in X-men: Curse of the Man-Thing a D-lister like Mammomax was stated to have killed a team of Navy Seals.
    Soldiers which take years to train and a lot of money to equip.
    Now of course, this is narrative 101 for super hero or action stories, where elite units of police or armies are shown utterly incapable of dealing with the heros or villains so either can look more impressive. So it's not like the X-men comics are sole offender here.

    However in the context of the mutants, robots seem like a great way to bypass various issues associated with deploying humans to deal with them. A mutant would need far rarer powers to turn them against each other or the population, their loss would not create mourning families and they can be produced by the conveyer belt and in less time than it takes to recruit, train and equip human operatives.

    That they would either end up too dumb to handle the situation with care, easily manipulated by classic means or turning against humanity is of course the downside.

    However these thoughts aside, i have in the past remarked how much i dislike the big purple Sentinels for being too casualy created, deployed and against whom.
    Not only does it feel like a 0->100 escalation of tech and force, but the idea that these things would only ever be used against mutants and not change the entire landscape of armed warfare in the Marvel Universe breaks my willing suspension of disbelief.

    Not necessarily that they exist in general, but that governments would mass produce them and then only ever use them against one specific group rather than all the time against any enemy. If they can constantly make new ones to put against mutants, they should also constantly be shown in the first waves against things like alien invasions or super villian attacks.

    That's like if the US armed forces would only ever employ aircrafts like the AC-130 against riots in US citities.

    The big Sentinels openly deployed on the streets should be the first sign for the end times (as it was in Days of Future Past), rather than something which should ever be "normality" even for a super hero universe. But the narrative escalation, by writers wanting to outdo themself or their predecessors, has essentialy created this situation and the X-men side of Marvel universe is suffering for this, in form a constant bleakness.

    So i would argue the big Sentinels are another aspect where the mutant metaphor breaks appart under too much examination.

    This is also the reason i disliked the Ultimate X-men, since it showed giant purple Sentinels existing and walking around US streets indiscriminately killing mutants, with no regard for collateral damage and by order of the US government.
    Do i need to list all the fundamental US laws that would break? This is more something for an apocalyptic story about society collapsing or the country descending into a high tech civil war, rather than something that would ever fit being a normality in a universe supposed to resemble our own.

    All in spite of the Ultimate universe being supposed to be a more "realistic" depiction of the Marvel Universe and having a "super human cold war" going on, in which everyone tries to have the most super humans or super technology.
    But lo and behold here is the US government has giant mass produced energy weapon armed flying purple killer robots with self driving AIs and seemingly endless power supply and they only ever show up to harm mutants.
    Where were those in Ultimates 1 and 2?

    Though given this was Mark Millar, a master of creating horrible hopeless worlds that are better of dragged behind the shed and put out of their missery, it's no suprise he would decide to start the whole thing like this. Which is exactly what eventualy happend with the Ultimate X-men and the Ultimate Universe to a degree too.

    Compare to the original continuity where the Sentinels at least started as the idea of a single concerned and fearfull man, quickly getting out of his controll and him dying in the attempt to stop them and only escalating afterwards.

    Overall. I agree that the big Sentinels are such a break of reason and escalation of force, which makes any reasonable debate difficult, because it's such a nice axe of an argument to bring out for why the whole coexistence idea seems utterly hopeless in the regular Marvel Universe too.

    Power supressors, protective armor or suits, protection fields, special training, human sized cyborgs/androids, anti-mutant SWAT teams (with mutant members), would be a much more reasonable government approach. But these weren't in vogue when the Sentinels were created for the X-men mythos.

    Though perhaps the next movies or cartoons could follow this kind of idea and reserve Sentinels for some vision of a horrible future, the clear sign of things having gone wrong and something which needs to be prevented to save the present.

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