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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Like What If? Back in Black, only it was Mary Jane who died and Peter not just killing the sniper who fired the bullet, but also the Kingpin, who hired the sniper, horrified Aunt May so much she disowned him while he was being taken into custody.
    so he loses in both scenarios
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No because this is What If. And Peter’s actions here are extreme.

    616 Peter has time and time again risked his life to save Flash, Jonah, and others he dislikes. He would never go out of his way to bully or intimidate or brutalise civilians. Maybe a few pranks but that’s it.
    and a lot of folks, in part based on their interpretation of news articles and select books, regarding Mr. Ditko's social/political views, and the assessment that he was the "real" writer of the Spider-Man strips, tend to create a certain kind of 'head-canon' and retroactively make Peter out to be a quasi-reactionary from AF #15 forward.. similar to the "Johnny was Right" crowd of Cobra Kai fans, the hero is tainted now with a sheen of villainy. The put-upon nerd is now the stuffy antisocial elitist ("Sheldon" from Big Bang) who got super-powers by accident but despite the death of Uncle Ben never truly divested of his elitist point of view. It's a trending cohort, and it disturbs me.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    and a lot of folks, in part based on their interpretation of news articles and select books, regarding Mr. Ditko's social/political views, and the assessment that he was the "real" writer of the Spider-Man strips, tend to create a certain kind of 'head-canon' and retroactively make Peter out to be a quasi-reactionary from AF #15 forward.. similar to the "Johnny was Right" crowd of Cobra Kai fans, the hero is tainted now with a sheen of villainy. The put-upon nerd is now the stuffy antisocial elitist ("Sheldon" from Big Bang) who got super-powers by accident but despite the death of Uncle Ben never truly divested of his elitist point of view. It's a trending cohort, and it disturbs me.
    Huh...

    Okay, deep breath...

    1) I have never been one of those people.
    2) I also wasn't discussing Spider-Man/Peter in general, but specifically his action in this comic, which is What-If and refers to this Peter and not Peter in general.

    Is that clear? I am not talking about people's projections of the author and character. I am talking about actual in-page on-panel action and dialogue.

    Peter using violence to extort and threaten people to do his will is extreme, immoral, wrong. And that's the case regardless of who he does it too.

    In the comic which is now out...Peter is angry at the Bugle calling him a murderer after he murdered Hobgoblin. And he then goes on a killing spree, murdering three more villains. And he justifies his actions, to Mary Jane who is shocked and appalled at this, saying that he and he alone gets to decide if people have made responsible uses of their lives, and if they haven't he'll kill them. That's very much fascist thinking.

    Or if not, it's close to this scene:


    And believe me I am come across Star Wars fans saying that because the Tusken Raiders are an evil race, Anakin was justified massacring them. And people wonder why George Lucas had to show him killing the younglings in ROTS.

  4. #49
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    And he justifies his actions, to Mary Jane who is shocked and appalled at this, saying that he and he alone gets to decide if people have made responsible uses of their lives, and if they haven't he'll kill them.
    Anyone remember the Fool Killer? This was exactly his mentality and I remember Peter not exactly liking that train of thought.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    and a lot of folks, in part based on their interpretation of news articles and select books, regarding Mr. Ditko's social/political views, and the assessment that he was the "real" writer of the Spider-Man strips, tend to create a certain kind of 'head-canon' and retroactively make Peter out to be a quasi-reactionary from AF #15 forward.. similar to the "Johnny was Right" crowd of Cobra Kai fans, the hero is tainted now with a sheen of villainy. The put-upon nerd is now the stuffy antisocial elitist ("Sheldon" from Big Bang) who got super-powers by accident but despite the death of Uncle Ben never truly divested of his elitist point of view. It's a trending cohort, and it disturbs me.
    I have gotten to the point with the “News” where I cannot watch anymore because it is not about reporting the news it is about spin, so I do not care what they think of anything I enjoy ( and that includes movies, the Yankees, Islanders and Spider-Man). Regardless of what one think’s of Ditko’s politics Peter is certainly not nor has he ever been a reactionary. I can say the same on the other side of the aisle: Conway and Spencer are both very liberal, but they did not turn Peter into a Social Justice Warrior ( SJW). That fact is a reason ( although not the only reason) why Peter remains popular today. Think about it: I have opinions 180 degrees polar opposite of Revolutionary Jack but Spider-Man has not reached the “Cancel Culture” mode where we stopped reading due to political reasons. As for elitism, Peter is about as NON-Elitist as comics come: He does not live in a mansion ( Avengers) or in their own Country ( mutants) and even when it comes to dealing with people he is color and socio-economic class blind.

  6. #51
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Anyone remember the Fool Killer? This was exactly his mentality and I remember Peter not exactly liking that train of thought.
    Yeah, though like Revolutionary_Jack's example with Anakin Skywalker and the Tusken Raiders he slaughtered as retribution for his murdered mother and how there were apologists for that particular atrocity, there are (unfortunately) plenty of people in real life who'd at least edge toward thinking a guy like that was somewhat justified. To me, that does also speak to an overall troublesome view that says if someone displeases or wrongs you in any manner, you (should) have the right to retaliate however you see fit, and somehow, that'll make a fairer or more just world.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Jonah calls Spider-man a menace so Spider-man decides he going to become a menace.

    I don't see how Spider-man is anyway in the right here.
    That's really oversimplifying the nature of their relationship, heck calling him a menace is probably the tamest thing Jonah ever said.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    man that issue was intense, im not gonna spoil but one nitpick is that Ben Grimm was shown alongside Reed. Wasn't during this time he was in Battleworld and She-hulk was substituting for the FF.
    Alternate universe...so may be more than just the difference of Peter keeping the symbiote.

    As far as fascism? No...more like bullying or thuggery.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only happy ending possible in this story, is the one where Peter turns himself in and goes to Jail.
    I would dig that.Just wrote a little about how I would like to see this end:

    Just imagine him finally getting rid of the symbiote either with the help of Reed and/or with sheer willpower and then finally after getting rid of it.He opens his eyes to all the dead heroes and/or friends that tried to stop him on his murderous rampage.Just surrounded by the dead bodies of Black cat,Luke cage,Jessica Jones,Human Torch,Sue Storm,Logan(I don't know how he would die though),Daredevil etc. and many dead villains in the background.Just the sheer horror of it.One of them get a last word like Daredevil or Human Torch like "why?".Peter can't take it and rummages through the corpses until he finds a sharp edged blade.He looks at it and sees his reflection in the blood soaked object and sees only venom.He is about to cut his own throat when MJ arrives.She has a broken left arm from when peter Pushed her in an earlier confrontation.She is bleeding a bit from making her way through the wreakage.She tries to get him to put the blade away.Peter in tears tells her he didn't mean to do it.She and peter have a heart to heart.She slowly approaches him while talking him down and gets the blade away.They hug while we move for a wide shot.We see the other heroes like Avengers arriving alongside Medics, police,press etc.We also see a few civilians.We cut to black.We cut to a news report.The trial of Spider-man is in session.She-Hulk is representing peter(we get a small bit where he says usually matt is his lawyer).We first hear the cases against peter.It's includes Jonah,couple of other crime lords,a few paid actors and most importantly the families of the super-villains he killed.Then we get all the heroes making their statements for Peter.It is heartfelt and emotional af.We get people like Cap and Ms marvel among many others recounting experiences and why Peter should be not be put in jail.Both sides are finished.The judge is about to announce the results.Spider-man without his mask(his identity is revealed in the fight) looks at MJ and recounts all the people he has lost over the years and the ones he killed in the venom fight.He declares himself guilty and asks for a life penalty.he makes a small speech about repsonsibilty.He takes one final look at the other heroes and MJ crying but with a small smile of understanding and is taken away to jail.I don't know what the final panels should be.Suggestions?
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 05-13-2021 at 08:53 AM.

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