Discussions of discrimination in superhero tv and film

[ed2962]

Why be subtle when it can be a big plot point? Also you nailed the issues of why this discrimination stories seem flaky now in comic films. if you indeed blink, you will miss it because many of this comic films are more focused on their action and comic bookie stuff than these themes. It should not be that way.

Well, I think in that particular case it was probably a matter of the filmmakers not wanting to get too deep with something they were going to sell as a 3-D action movie, you know? They didn't go into details of the Holocaust or Jim Crow or Chinese comfort women women either.

[CosmiComic]

Oh, it doesn’t. People love to pretend it does though. They drag out sayings like “people are afraid of what they don’t understand” which kind of addresses real world bigotry, but when applied to the X-Men… what level of understanding would make someone less afraid of a man who can flip the earths magnetic poles and also hates you because your genes are different? The metaphor simply doesn’t work.

Exactly. I appreciate tbe general idea of tolerance but it's inadequate for anything more specific. And it doesn't address the root problem, which is lack of representation among characters. And I don't remember if the X-Men comics have really ever tackled actual bigotry all that much. Not that other comics are doing great, but they're at least trying. X-Men are diverse enough to not need a metaphor IMO

[Castle]

Oh, it doesn’t. People love to pretend it does though. They drag out sayings like “people are afraid of what they don’t understand” which kind of addresses real world bigotry, but when applied to the X-Men… what level of understanding would make someone less afraid of a man who can flip the earths magnetic poles and also hates you because your genes are different? The metaphor simply doesn’t work.

I don't think it works in some part of MCU POV because MCU has failed moslty to do it the ways xmen has done it over the decades, but outside from that, it not only worked but it has become a staple.

You cannot convince 98% of people using just pure objective POV that this is 100% bs.

[numberthirty]

My dude was born in Oakland. How do you miss that?

The only way that I could buy someone not knowing that much about the film is just having seen almost none of it.

That is what I tend to believe is going on here.

A sort of "I've Never Seen Ghostbusters, But Let Me Tell You About That Louis Tully Is Clearly Is(Or Is Meant To Be?...) Canadian..." situation.

[ed2962]

The klan stuff didn’t happen until the 70’s, the X-Men were in full swing by then.

I'd argue that the X-men as metaphor wasn't really laid on thick until the 80's. The 60's X-Men touched on it once in a while, but it wasn't the point of the series. Meanwhile, other titles from Spidey to the Avengers to DD to Iron Man would deal with social issues in a pretty direct way.

[Coal Tiger]

I don't think it works in some part of MCU POV because MCU has failed moslty to do it the ways xmen has done it over the decades, but outside from that, it not only worked but it has become a staple.

You cannot convince 98% of people using just pure objective POV that this is 100% bs.

By your own admission, you are completely ignorant of the ways the MCU has handled discussions of race and discrimination so you don’t really have anything relevant to add to this discussion.

You are right in the sense that the X-Men need the metaphor. It was central to their relevance and popularity. Discussions of race, bigotry, and discrimination, on the other hand, do not need the X-Men.

[numberthirty]

No, sort of disagree. because this already happened.



Singer said 20 years ago that this themes should be the big plot point. he proved his own theory right.

...

Just because one artist can only see a canvas covered in nothing but safety orange?

That does not suddenly create a reality where that is the only possible route to getting something across.

There is a perfectly good reason that no one ever says "Bryan Singer's 'X' Films Are Just As Good As The Usual Suspects."

[Castle]

Well, I think in that particular case it was probably a matter of the filmmakers not wanting to get too deep

Well said and also this is why there seem to be so much resentment for X-MEN here by the presumed rival movies of the MCU, because X-MEN did go deep by the filmmaker own request. I can say this in good faith wth Bryan Singer and Chris Nolan at least with their comic films. you cannot make light hearted movies of these themes, they have to be deep.

with something they were going to sell as a 3-D action movie, you know? They didn't go into details of the Holocaust or Jim Crow or Chinese comfort women women either.

First Class went into the holocaust deeper as was necessary to set up other big plot points.





the rest of the movie was set in the civil rights era and the cold war USA/USSR conflict. infact, if you remove these 3 things out the movie.

Magneto holocaust back story

The civil right 60 era setting

USSA/USSR COLD CONFLIT.

There is no movie anymore with X-MEN First Class.

But I will wait to hear again from Cool Tiger, it is a false narrative simply because the movie was not part of the MCU

[numberthirty]

By your own admission, you are completely ignorant of the ways the MCU has handled discussions of race and discrimination so you don’t really have anything relevant to add to this discussion.

You are right in the sense that the X-Men need the metaphor. It was central to their relevance and popularity. Discussions of race, bigotry, and discrimination, on the other hand, do not need the X-Men.

Yep. This pretty clearly lays out that there are layers past what happened to Magneto.

(Not To Minimize What Happened To Magneto. Just To Point Out That There Is No "Apples..."/"Apples..." Equivalent To This In Magneto's Story...)

[ed2962]

I don't think it works in some part of MCU POV because MCU has failed moslty to do it the ways xmen has done it over the decades, but outside from that, it not only worked but it has become a staple.

You cannot convince 98% of people using just pure objective POV that this is 100% bs.

I'm sorry...but no. Read the history of the civil rights movement, then read about Malcom X, then read those early Stan and Jack comics. The idea that early 60's X-men were created to mirror those real life men doesn't even make sense.

[numberthirty]

...

you cannot make light hearted movies of these themes, they have to be deep.

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Been There. Done That.

[Castle]

[QUOTE]

Yep. This pretty clearly lays out that there are layers past what happened to Magneto.

(Not To Minimize What Happened To Magneto. Just To Point Out That There Is No "Apples..."/"Apples..." Equivalent To This In Magneto's Story...)

Magneto was shown to be actually oppressed in nazi camps and later hunted down by Sentinels. this is a plot point that builds for the rest of the film. Killmonger is telling a story here that has no other major plot point in the film. there is big difference, his main arc is to be king of a rich country. He is not Magneto. he is Loki. that is not deep because the plot point is dropped and moved to who is the king of wakanda or asgard? [B]not once is killmonger shown to be oppressed like Magneto and this is because xmen just went deeper with this themes/B]

I'm sorry...but no. Read the history of the civil rights movement, then read about Malcom X, then read those early Stan and Jack comics. The idea that early 60's X-men were created to mirror those real life men doesn't even make sense.

Make that more Claremont 70s and 80s X-MEN and the history they say was over. though Stan can get some credit.

This phrase said by Magneto...by any means necessary,



Was said by Malcom X first, not Magneto.

[Coal Tiger]

the rest of the movie was set in the civil rights era and the cold war USA/USSR conflict. infact, if you remove these 3 things out the movie.

Magneto holocaust back story

The civil right 60 era setting

USSA/USSR COLD CONFLIT.

There is no movie anymore with X-MEN First Class.

But I will wait to hear again from Cool Tiger, it is a false narrative simply because the movie was not part of the MCU

What do the movies say about these settings? Nothing, they are set-dressing. While First Class was the best X-Men movie, it abandons any recognizable depiction of the holocaust to make Magneto secretly tormented by another mutant who wanted to exploit his power.

It has nothing to say about civil rights or the Cold War, they are just background. And when the background gets too restrictive, they have a secret sci-fi jet that does all the things the Jet from the 90’s could do. The movie merely cashes in on 60’s nostalgia fueled almost entirely by the success of Mad Men, they even use one of the actresses from the show.

[CosmiComic]

Plus, Magneto was persecuted because he was a Jew, not because he was a mutant

[numberthirty]

...

Magneto was shown to be actually oppressed in nazi camps and later hunted down by Sentinels. this is a plot point that builds for the rest of the film. Killmonger is telling a story here that has no other major plot point in the film. there is big difference, his main arc is to be king of a rich country. He is not Magneto. he is Loki. that is not deep because the plot point is dropped and moved to who is the king of wakanda or asgard?

...

Again, you are objectively incorrect.

Far enough off that I can only assume that you've never really seen much of the film. Never mind enough to actually understand what his arc actually was or was not.