Discussions of discrimination in superhero tv and film

[inisideguy]

[
It's an interesting discussion and so far said series and movies aren't too preachy, I think these discussions are necessary to have. Let's be honest, if there was a real world Captain America, a good chunk of the US won't accept a black man taking that mantle. To simply have a series of movies that ignores this is kind of ridiculous. How will the world react to a black man having the power of a god like Superman, what does it actually mean to be a minority superhero in the US...in a country where a large part of the population actually hate and fear you. This isn't stuff that can just be ignored anymore.[/QUOTE]


I have heard this term too preachy before. I don't really understand it. Isn't that a totally subjective term? What would be to preachy for someone? I mean I guess for some people CTAWS would be to preachy.

[Vakanai]

It has been confirmed that JJ Abrams movies would have a black superman, are we sure it will be Clark Kent? I won't fully trust JJ Abrams based on how he treated POC characters like Uhura in star trek into darkness, Finn and Rose Tico in Rise of Skywalker


Overall, I think a Black Clark Kent movie is not necessary. what should be is to make a movie about a black character from Kyprton and sure, you can have a race discussion or race themes that does not have to be inflammatory.

We need to ask ourselves how do people like JJ Abrams or Disney get it so wrong and are called woke or paint by numbers, but other people like Spike Lee and Quentin Tarantino get it so right with their films.

From everything we've heard, smart money is on a race bent Clark Kent. I mean, anything is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath in the hopes of them announcing it'll be Calvin Ellis, as much as it should be him. And Val-Zod is even less likely. Either one of those would be a must see in theater for me. But race swapping Clark elicits a "Eh, when the DVD goes down to $12 dollars I'll catch it, maybe," from me.

[Castle]

From everything we've heard, smart money is on a race bent Clark Kent. I mean, anything is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath in the hopes of them announcing it'll be Calvin Ellis, as much as it should be him. And Val-Zod is even less likely. Either one of those would be a must see in theater for me.

So like Mary Jane from 616/Michelle Jones from MCU?

This could indeed work, my only issue is that it is still an alternate version of the real Superman who is still white.

But race swapping Clark elicits a "Eh, when the DVD goes down to $12 dollars I'll catch it, maybe," from me.

I am afraid, this will be the opinions of many people also. Hollywood needs to learn and I say this as a person of color myself. there is no need to race swap a white character. just create a brand new POC character and give them same attributes and story arcs that made the white characters good in the first place.

[Huntsman Spider]

I would say that a lot of the issue is that ultimately, superheroes solve their problems by punching things --- so what happens when they run into something they can't just punch, like the hatred and fear in people's hearts towards people that are different from them in some way or other? I mean, there are plenty in real life who'd say that the only solution to the ongoing crisis of bigotry in our society is to meet violence with violence, whether in defense or retaliation, to make the bigots who justify their violence against others by claiming fear truly afraid --- but what does that solve in the end? No minds have been changed, no hearts have been swayed, no one's been convinced to try to do and be better as human beings by one another . . . Going back to addressing bigotry and prejudice in society through superheroes, that calls into question how they exert their own power in that society, or whether they should exert their power to effect social change for the better, since so many stories where superheroes have tried to consciously affect society to make it better have ended with them as superpowered dictators and/or destroyers of society. Even if it is for an objectively good cause like standing up for those who've been persecuted and marginalized in (or by) society, how do you guarantee that the superheroes won't just wind up abusing their power in that vein, too?

[CosmiComic]

I don't think I'd immediately jump to heroes abusing their powet while trying to fight racism. I think there are plenty of ways they could address the issue

[Vakanai]

So like Mary Jane from 616/Michelle Jones from MCU?

This could indeed work, my only issue is that it is still an alternate version of the real Superman who is still white.


I am afraid, this will be the opinions of many people also. Hollywood needs to learn and I say this as a person of color myself. there is no need to race swap a white character. just create a brand new POC character and give them same attributes and story arcs that made the white characters good in the first place.

They don't even have to create a brand new POC character - they already have some of the best ones out of the Big Two! They just need to use them. Steel has always been a favorite character of mine, and Vixen is primed and ready to hit the media big leagues. Bronze Tiger could be a martial arts extravaganza. I only recently learned of Amazing Man but from what little I know he could be big time, easy, with the right push. But do they have any movies coming up? No, because it's somehow better to change a character who's always going to be white in most people's eyes. It just doesn't make sense...

[luprki]

98% of comic book superheroes have no race race because they are fictional characters. If a non-white actor gets cast for Clark Kent, so be it.

[Vakanai]

I would say that a lot of the issue is that ultimately, superheroes solve their problems by punching things --- so what happens when they run into something they can't just punch, like the hatred and fear in people's hearts towards people that are different from them in some way or other? I mean, there are plenty in real life who'd say that the only solution to the ongoing crisis of bigotry in our society is to meet violence with violence, whether in defense or retaliation, to make the bigots who justify their violence against others by claiming fear truly afraid --- but what does that solve in the end? No minds have been changed, no hearts have been swayed, no one's been convinced to try to do and be better as human beings by one another . . . Going back to addressing bigotry and prejudice in society through superheroes, that calls into question how they exert their own power in that society, or whether they should exert their power to effect social change for the better, since so many stories where superheroes have tried to consciously affect society to make it better have ended with them as superpowered dictators and/or destroyers of society. Even if it is for an objectively good cause like standing up for those who've been persecuted and marginalized in (or by) society, how do you guarantee that the superheroes won't just wind up abusing their power in that vein, too?

I'd suggest reading Superman Smashes the Klan.

[PCN24454]

98% of comic book superheroes have no race race because they are fictional characters. If a non-white actor gets cast for Clark Kent, so be it.

So a white person could play Cyborg and there would be no problem?

Being black isn't integral to Cyborg's character.

[Castle]

]So a white person could play Cyborg and there would be no problem[/B]?

Being black isn't integral to Cyborg's character.

No a white person cannot and should not play Cybrog and this is part of the problem with the bad politics of the woke left wingers and the white privilege right wingers when it comes to dealing with racism or not understanding race issues in the most logical ways.

Whites and blacks don't have the same journey or the same struggles, while I am not fully 100% in support of race swapping white characters to black, we all need to realise that because history and society have always treated black characters as lesser and inferior but most of all given less opportunities compared to the White characters. changing a black character to white, would be unfair based on those grounds because you should not take from others that were given so little in the first place.

No being black was not part of Cyborg character but he is black, meaning his struggles is different to the white characters by default, However that been said, you don't give black characters more opportunities by trying to erase every white character. this is were Hollywood is going wrong with their diversity push. what you need to do is keep the white characters as they are and expand the lore and universe to include more brand fresh new original black characters or have more actual good in-depth allegory for discrimination. that is the best way to do it.

[CosmiComic]

So a white person could play Cyborg and there would be no problem?

Being black isn't integral to Cyborg's character.

The problem is there isn't many Black heroes, so changing a Black one to a White one doesn't help diversity

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't think I'd immediately jump to heroes abusing their powet while trying to fight racism. I think there are plenty of ways they could address the issue

I'd suggest reading Superman Smashes the Klan.

Thanks for the recommendation. I've been meaning to do that. The question I'm trying to ask, though, concerns whether or not superheroes are all that well-equipped to fight bigotry by winning the hearts and minds of the people who can be swayed, as opposed to just curb-stomping the bigots, no matter how viscerally satisfying the second would be to see. Basically, if violence is how bigotry is able to enforce and sustain itself and violence is seen as heroic by bigots if it's in the name of defending "their way of life and the societal order," then how do superheroes address that, given that "violence in the name of justice" is a key component, if not the core, of the superhero genre itself? It's kind of a moral conundrum, at least for me.

[PCN24454]

The problem is there isn't many Black heroes, so changing a Black one to a White one doesn't help diversity

That's a fair point.

[CosmiComic]

Thanks for the recommendation. I've been meaning to do that. The question I'm trying to ask, though, concerns whether or not superheroes are all that well-equipped to fight bigotry by winning the hearts and minds of the people who can be swayed, as opposed to just curb-stomping the bigots, no matter how viscerally satisfying the second would be to see.

I think fight villains who are bigots is a start. But herors could also do other things, like maybe protecting protests against institutional violence, or helping victims of racialized crimes.

That's a fair point.

Yeah. While I'm not saying all race changes are good, changing White characters to PoC ones does have some good intentions

[Castle]

I would say that a lot of the issue is that ultimately, superheroes solve their problems by punching things --- so what happens when they run into something they can't just punch, like the hatred and fear in people's hearts towards people that are different from them in some way or other?

I have talked about it many times and why I said, X-Men was the best at handling this topic because xmen post 70s moved beyond generic comic book story telling where all the problems is solved by punching things.

I have already said, in the xmen movies, not once did Magneto and Xavier punch each other at least Patrick Stewart and Ian Mckellen and even the younger actors, only fought once...just once and that was due to dire circumstances than superhero basic brawling. this scene, please read the comment beyond the good cinematography. you would see people, who I am thinking are age 21 and over talk about how much this was a different type of comic film because neither the main villains were (Magneto and Kelly) fighters and Both these others, Xavier and Magneto characters though rivals dont engage in physical brawl



This is how you do a good film on discrimination in a comic film that will make you care about it in a way that should not be based on bad stereotypes of comic book stories. where people feel it is about punching things all the time.

And when you shift to a more extreme like days of future past, written by Claremont. he said the purpose of that story was, the heroes had lost and they could not punch their way out of the genocide and discrimination of mutants sent to concentration camps, a story that was lifted from the world war 2 and what happens to jews. the battle had to be won by more of changing human rights laws and some coming to see, they were wrong to discriminate this was the reason although the xmen fought the sentinels many times in that story, they were always going to loose the physical battle. they had to rewrite the past or show not all mutants were evil or something.

It is true, that one of the best ways to highlight more of this issue, is to reduce the action scenes and make it more philosophical with far more government input and political angle and more drama because that is how the real world works. so when some marvel fans like me, favoured the more grounded drama driven comic films driven with themes, with less action scenes that go on for hours. we know what we were talking about all along.