Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 511121314151617 LastLast
Results 211 to 225 of 249
  1. #211
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    7,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    X-Men is my favorite comic property but IMO shows and films like Black Lightning, Doom Patrol, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and Black Panther did better with dealing with bigotry because they were actually dealing with real bigotry and not a metaphor.

    That's the inherent issue with the X-Men it's a metaphor which for all the claims of the MCU being for kids it's the X-Men that's the real kids property because that's who metaphors and allegories are for that to teach kids to not judge others for being different. But let's face it if someone haven't figured out bigotry is wrong by adulthood no Superhero movie is going to change their mind. It will take something more meaning and real for that to happen.

    The 2nd issue with the X-Men as a metaphor is Mutants are a potential threat. In X-Men (2000) Rogue accidentally put a boy into a cina, Xavier told Logan he discovered as a child he could read and control minds, and Cyclops took the roof off a train station when Toad took off his visor. Can we honestly say Kelly was 100% wrong for wanting Mutant registration? He may be coming from it from a place of bigotry but there is some validation in the XCU for it and that makes mutants a poor metaphor for real minorities.

    As for X-Men TAS my favorite X-Men put to film but it has aging issues. They and Spider-Man TAS another favorite of mine say destroy a ridiculous amount of times due to not being allowed to mention death.
    The bolded has been my argument for a good long while now.

    There is logic in saying that a good number of mutants are inherently dangerous, thus any responsible society will take steps to protect people from them. This simple fact alone makes the whole mutant metaphor fall apart. Magneto in X-men: Apocalypse nearly destroyed a good chunk of the planet, are people supposed to just fold there arms when mutants could wipe off humanity in the blink of an eye? Real life minorities aren't inherently dangerous (despite people using eugenics to try to argue otherwise) and comparing an inherently dangerous group of individuals to real life minorities just doesn't work.

    That's why comparing Xavier/Magneto to MLK and Malcolm X is absolute nonsense. Magneto was created to be a supervillain and even in the movies is a pretty violent murderer, comparing the two is a terrible slight to Malcolm X and what he actually fought for.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-13-2021 at 02:50 AM.
    Black Lives Matter.

  2. #212
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    4,834

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Mutants don't exist, so there's no direct comparison Falcon and WS or BP.

    I mean, you haven't even watched Black Panther or Falcon and WS, so I don't know why you keep wasting your time trying to argue against something you haven't even watched. You're the same person that said "Things Fall Apart" was high fantasy.

    Don't waste your time and data cost to argue and comment about things you haven't watched. It really portrays you as being very ignorant and/or very dishonest. There's a reason why you haven't been able to convince anyone here with your points.

    Spamming links to youtube and other websites don't help your arguments either.

    I am going to hammer home that a certain person watch Mortal Kombat(twice) by their admission, but is the same person who said they didn't watch Falcon and Winter Soldier because it was mindless action. The person criticize MCU all the time but Suicide Squad 2 trailer comes out looking straight out the MCU playbook depending on silly comedy and they said they are looking forward to watching it.

    I don't mind people preferring what they want to watch, everyone is free to their own opinion however annoying it might be but when someone talks about something they haven't watch and tries diminish it because of their bias it is pretty messed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Can we honestly say Kelly was 100% wrong for wanting Mutant registration? He may be coming from it from a place of bigotry but there is some validation in the XCU for it and that makes mutants a poor metaphor for real minorities.

    As for X-Men TAS my favorite X-Men put to film but it has aging issues.
    I get annoyed every time a cure storyline for mutants pop up because every single time the person give the cure turns out to be bigot or they try to force the cure. I was watching the Gifted and the first the doctor seem okay and the show look like it was going to touch on the very real issue that some mutants are a danger to themselves and cure isn't that bad option for them. In fact the father on the show was given a destructive power that he couldn't control. Of course the show instead dealing with a complex subject the Doctor turns into a super bigot and they lab ends up being destroyed. And show runs from the valid point if mutant can't control their powers it might be a good idea for them to not have the powers.

    Anyways the point is there is tons of non bigoted reasons for mutant registration bunch of them would be want by the mutants themselves the metaphor minorities get in the way of common sense scifi. The sheer fact a mutant when they first manifest their powers is like to go out of control is reason enough to have registration. I can't think of anybody who wouldn't want to know that might spontaneously combust into to fire. You would have to imagine when you reach a current age under careful monitoring they would give you drug that forces your powers to manifest so you can do it safely with out harming anybody. Registration makes sense which makes the metaphor weak at times because I think everybody wants to know Franklin, Legion, Proteus, Matthew Malloy, etc can safely control their powers. How many times has an angry teenager lash out and did the wrong thing because lack of maturity?
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 05-13-2021 at 03:47 AM.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The bolded has been my argument for a good long while now.

    #

    That's why comparing Xavier/Magneto to MLK and Malcolm X is absolute nonsense. Magneto was created to be a supervillai
    n and even in the movies is a pretty violent murderer, comparing the two is a terrible slight to Malcolm X and what he actually fought for.
    We have this issue before about Magneto. no one said he is a pure copy of Malcom X. We said he has some Malcom X traits. that is not pure nonsense. Malcom X was not a murderer but he justified violence in self defence that may feel very wrong now in 2021 , this is also the reason why the media don't celebrate him much and wont give him monuments like they did with MLK because MLK never evoked violence. correct me if I am wrong but usually magneto sometimes only acts in self defence.Also Magneto is not a person you can dismiss only as a pure murderer, because the character has been retconned many times. Read XMEN Second coming. that is the most Malcom X he was at 100%.



    There is logic in saying that a good number of mutants are inherently dangerous, thus any responsible society will take steps to protect people from them. This simple fact alone makes the whole mutant metaphor fall apart. Magneto in X-men: Apocalypse nearly destroyed a good chunk of the planet, are people supposed to just fold there arms when mutants could wipe off humanity in the blink of an eye? Real life minorities aren't inherently dangerous (despite people using eugenics to try to argue otherwise) and comparing an inherently dangerous group of individuals to real life minorities just doesn't work.
    Except them been possibly dangerous, is one of the many reasons they are discriminated against. the reason why it works is because they have different genetic gene. Not all mutants have dangerous powers or use their power for evil. I mean how dangerous are characters like Sammy Paré , Wing or three headed John?

    With real life minorities, the reason why there was so much racism was because the skin color of people are different and many on a more far right side have argue human races have different genetics and DNA which is not 100% true but some what to say so, to push their prejudice feelings. X-MEN Mutants are still part of the genetic genes of regular humans, which just slight differences. Also the world saw Jews, Gays and Blacks as dangerous that is why slavery and the holocaust happened. so this is part of the metaphor of the fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Mutants don't exist, so there's no direct comparison Falcon and WS or BP.

    I mean, you haven't even watched Black Panther or Falcon and WS, so I don't know why you keep wasting your time trying to argue against something you haven't even watched. You're the same person that said "Things Fall Apart" was high fantasy.
    .
    Super serum that make people captain America don't exist either. they are all fiction. The question becomes how do you evaluate this fiction to mirror real life and the where the boys writing becomes sperate from the men's writing. this is why there is Hulu, Netflix, HBO MAX and there is Disney plus because dealing with these themes will vary on each platform, and this is why you ignored everything I said prior about when mutants were experimented on. I don't have to have watched F and WS to know there is no scene in the series like X2 when Wolverine comes out off the lab, all naked and blooded up after he was experimented on. Disney plus story telling code, does not allow that. What we have now is deflect and goal post move when facts are provided again like that clip.

    That is like me also saying, I am watching a disney plus show expecting to see a rape scene. I know that cannot happen on their shows it is not Game of Thrones. You don't have to watch them to know, you just read their TV regulations. But what this regulation does is also affect how far you can take the themes.


    I mean, you haven't even watched Black Panther or Falcon and WS, so I don't know why you keep wasting your time trying to argue against something you haven't even watched. You're the same person that said "Things Fall Apart" was high fantasy.
    I saw Black Panther 4 times. this is why I know, the movie does not do deep enough. Also you misquoted me on things fall apart, I said Hollywood can make it high fantasy or low fantasy based on many factors. You are calling me ignorant and dishonest, when I am the person that has posted far more videos of how discmrintaion has been portrayed in a series and discussed some story arcs more. . Logically and truthfully, this will be helping my argument to anyone that sees comic films and tv shows beyond which studio made them.

    if anything is dishonest to me, it is the pretence XMEN never gone deep or should be ruled out of the topic because they are not MCU movies. If anything I have kept things very honest by saying, MCU should not be making this movies light hearted or action driven because it makes it easy to ignore the themes of discrimination, Bryan Singer's approach objectively worked better in making these themes more harder to ignore. A directing style he succeeded with that MCU itself tried to copy off with Black Panther to make one of their lesser comedic driven films, ? Don't we all see the irony of this.


    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a8...dwick-boseman/

    Black Panther's Michael B Jordan teases 'X-Men plot' with Chadwick Boseman
    Last edited by Castle; 05-13-2021 at 04:25 AM.

  4. #214
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    7,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    We have this issue before about Magneto. no one said he is a pure copy of Malcom X. We said he has some Malcom X traits. that is not pure nonsense. Malcom X was not a murderer but he justified violence in self defence that may feel very wrong now in 2021 , this is also the reason why the media don't celebrate him much and wont give him monuments like they did with MLK because MLK never evoked violence. correct me if I am wrong but usually magneto sometimes only acts in self defence.Also Magneto is not a person you can dismiss only as a pure murderer, because the character has been retconned many times. Read XMEN Second coming. that is the most Malcom X he was at 100%.





    Except them been possibly dangerous, is one of the many reasons they are discriminated against. the reason why it works is because they have different genetic gene. Not all mutants have dangerous powers or use their power for evil. I mean how dangerous are characters like Sammy Paré , Wing or three headed John?

    With real life minorities, the reason why there was so much racism was because the skin color of people are different and many on a more far right side have argue human races have different genetics and DNA which is not 100% true but some what to say so, to push their prejudice feelings. X-MEN Mutants are still part of the genetic genes of regular humans, which just slight differences. Also the world saw Jews, Gays and Blacks as dangerous that is why slavery and the holocaust happened. so this is part of the metaphor of the fiction.



    Super serum that make people captain America don't exist either. they are all fiction. The question becomes how do you evaluate this fiction to mirror real life and the where the boys writing becomes sperate from the men's writing. this is why there is Hulu, Netflix, HBO MAX and there is Disney plus because dealing with these themes will vary on each platform, and this is why you ignored everything I said prior about when mutants were experimented on. I don't have to have watched F and WS to know there is no scene in the series like X2 when Wolverine comes out off the lab, all naked and blooded up after he was experimented on. Disney plus story telling code, does not allow that. What we have now is deflect and goal post move when facts are provided again like that clip.

    That is like me also saying, I am watching a disney plus show expecting to see a rape scene. I know that cannot happen on their shows it is not Game of Thrones. You don't have to watch them to know, you just read their TV regulations. But what this regulation does is also affect how far you can take the themes.




    I saw Black Panther 4 times. this is why I know, the movie does not do deep enough. Also you misquoted me on things fall apart, I said Hollywood can make it high fantasy or low fantasy based on many factors. You are calling me ignorant and dishonest, when I am the person that has posted far more videos of how discmrintaion has been portrayed in a series and discussed some story arcs more. . Logically and truthfully, this will be helping my argument to anyone that sees comic films and tv shows beyond which studio made them.

    if anything is dishonest to me, it is the pretence XMEN never gone deep or should be ruled out of the topic because they are not MCU movies. If anything I have kept things very honest by saying, MCU should not be making this movies light hearted or action driven because it makes it easy to ignore the themes of discrimination, Bryan Singer's approach objectively worked better in making these themes more harder to ignore. A directing style he succeeded with that MCU itself tried to copy off with Black Panther to make one of their lesser comedic driven films, ? Don't we all see the irony of this.


    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a8...dwick-boseman/

    Black Panther's Michael B Jordan teases 'X-Men plot' with Chadwick Boseman
    Just watch the stuff you’re talking about and then we can have an honest discussion.

    Otherwise, save your time and data costs.
    Black Lives Matter.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    Dont worry about my data cost, this is public discussion of talking to many people about discrimination in comics and doing it with honesty backed up by evidence and facts told in the films or tv. This is another factual example. Craydon Creed the mutant KKK grand wizard of the marvel universe threatens to lynch an asian-mutant for being different. Telling her , her biggest crime was been born.



    LOL, Right now I just appreciate that at least XMEN got some of this told down in live action , since Marvel now does not even care anymore about this type of story telling anymore.

    And just to stress why this story arc was different and unusual. Craydon Creed is a character who has self hatred, because his parents were mutants , something he hid from his other KKK folks. According to him, killing his own parents would free him of the mutant heritage curse. that is the word he uses in on the show, that mutant were A cursed race and he needed to be cleansed.

    This are how you do mature and even disturbing themes on discrimination in a comic film to raise the bar in storyy telling. I have yet to see any other marvel tv, show or movie even tackling this kind of subject but a Saturday morning cartoon did this. The more I even discover or remember some of this stuff. the more I realise how XMEN is not even on anyone else level with this themes.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-13-2021 at 06:52 AM.

  6. #216
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    7,531

    Default

    Another problem with the metaphor is the way mutants are oppressed isn't really like how actual marginalized groups, like PoC, are oppressed, at least not in the USA and other more developed nations. It's not as over the top as killer robots and concentration camps. It's things like cultural appropriation or suppression, poverty, excessive police violence and/or lack of police protection. One might compare Sentinels to police brutality, but that's about it.

    Plus, I really don't believe governments would kill mutants rather than capture them and experiment on them. Weapon X, or even Hellfire Club, seem far more likely than Sentinels or destroying Genosha. I mean, what would happen if a bigot discovered they was a mutant? Wouldn't they use that power to attack groups they hate?

  7. #217
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    7,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Another problem with the metaphor is the way mutants are oppressed isn't really like how actual marginalized groups, like PoC, are oppressed, at least not in the USA and other more developed nations. It's not as over the top as killer robots and concentration camps. It's things like cultural appropriation or suppression, poverty, excessive police violence and/or lack of police protection. One might compare Sentinels to police brutality, but that's about it.

    Plus, I really don't believe governments would kill mutants rather than capture them and experiment on them. Weapon X, or even Hellfire Club, seem far more likely than Sentinels or destroying Genosha. I mean, what would happen if a bigot discovered they was a mutant? Wouldn't they use that power to attack groups they hate?
    The bolded part is exactly what happened in X-men:First Class with Sebastian Shaw.
    Black Lives Matter.

  8. #218
    Spectacular Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Dont worry about my data cost, this is public discussion of talking to many people about discrimination in comics and doing it with honesty backed up by evidence and facts told in the films or tv. This is another factual example. Craydon Creed the mutant KKK grand wizard of the marvel universe threatens to lynch an asian-mutant for being different. Telling her , her biggest crime was been born.



    LOL, Right now I just appreciate that at least XMEN got some of this told down in live action , since Marvel now does not even care anymore about this type of story telling anymore.

    And just to stress why this story arc was different and unusual. Craydon Creed is a character who has self hatred, because his parents were mutants , something he hid from his other KKK folks. According to him, killing his own parents would free him of the mutant heritage curse. that is the word he uses in on the show, that mutant were A cursed race and he needed to be cleansed.

    This are how you do mature and even disturbing themes on discrimination in a comic film to raise the bar in storyy telling. I have yet to see any other marvel tv, show or movie even tackling this kind of subject but a Saturday morning cartoon did this. The more I even discover or remember some of this stuff. the more I realise how XMEN is not even on anyone else level with this themes.
    .
    Actually despite its faults FATWS explores the subject of racism pretty well throughout the show especially on episode 2 and 5. Though I guess it is too "immature" for your tastes

  9. #219
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    7,531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The bolded part is exactly what happened in X-men:First Class with Sebastian Shaw.
    That's true. My point is it further disrupts the whole "mutant minority metaphor"

  10. #220
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,792

    Default

    I remember one X-men issue where a mutant suddenly manifested the power to vaporize all life around him. He couldn't control it or turn it off. He killed over 200 people without even knowing what was going on.

    They sent Wolverine to kill him because Logan could survive his powers and they didn't want it getting out that a mutant had killed so many people without even knowing what he was doing.

  11. #221
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    7,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I remember one X-men issue where a mutant suddenly manifested the power to vaporize all life around him. He couldn't control it or turn it off. He killed over 200 people without even knowing what was going on.

    They sent Wolverine to kill him because Logan could survive his powers and they didn't want it getting out that a mutant had killed so many people without even knowing what he was doing.
    Even recently during the Bendis run, the X-men had to "unbirth" Matthew Malloy because the guy was so powerful that could bend reality.

    It's crazy because there's been a number of mutants that just by manifesting their powers they leave death and destruction in their wake.
    Black Lives Matter.

  12. #222
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Running Springs, California
    Posts
    7,098

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I remember one X-men issue where a mutant suddenly manifested the power to vaporize all life around him. He couldn't control it or turn it off. He killed over 200 people without even knowing what was going on.

    They sent Wolverine to kill him because Logan could survive his powers and they didn't want it getting out that a mutant had killed so many people without even knowing what he was doing.
    Thats hilarious, they sent Wolverine in to kill him. Must have been "remind everyone Wolverine is a badass" week.

    Nuke the kid from orbit. Only way to be sure.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  13. #223
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    7,531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Thats hilarious, they sent Wolverine in to kill him. Must have been "remind everyone Wolverine is a badass" week.

    Nuke the kid from orbit. Only way to be sure.
    Isn't that just every other week?

  14. #224
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Isn't that just every other week?
    I'm pretty sure that's his mutant power.

    Claws
    Heighten senses
    Healing Factor
    Is Badass

  15. #225
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    587

    Default

    It is not only that it would make sense that regular humans would fear mutant powers, that limits how useful mutants are as a metaphor for minority groups, but also that being a mutant comes with awesome literally superhuman powers.

    That is pretty substantially different from having a different color skin or being from a different country or practicing a different faith. Just being in a minority group is not an inherent advantage, while having super powers by definition is an advantage over the non-powered. There is a trade-off, to having people discriminate against you, but being able to control fire or having indestructible skin or whatever. No such trade-off, for just being hated for something you had no ability to choose.
    Be kind to me, or treat me mean
    I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •