Discussions of discrimination in superhero tv and film

[Castle]

It was there, but if you blinked you'd miss it. It's when Cap saved the POWs, the Asian guy walked up and and I think Dugan said, "Oh what, we have to take everyone now?" And the Asian guy gets in his face and says, "Hey! I'm from Frenso, Ace!" It was a subtle reference to the anti-Japanese prejudice in America at the time.

Why be subtle when it can be a big plot point? Also you nailed the issues of why this discrimination stories seem flaky now in comic films. if you indeed blink, you will miss it because many of this comic films are more focused on their action and comic bookie stuff than these themes. It should not be that way.

Yeah let's tell a story about racism using white people as stand ins because "skin color doesn't matter in stories about racism. Wtf???

What you described here is not how X-MEN stories worked. LOL.
Although from the movies, Mystique real skin color being blue puts her in a far more worse position than the non white people when it comes to racism.



So she could not go to school as a child due to blue skin? sure.

[CosmiComic]

First of all, Killmonger *is* an American. Maybe you missed that in your deep reading of the film. Second, he wasn’t supposed to be like Magneto because mutants aren’t a suitable stand-in for black people or any other race. The mutant metaphor was always a poor substitute for actual racial issues because there’s a difference between being afraid of a person who has dark skin and being afraid of a person who can blow up a mountain by looking at it. People would accept the “mutant metaphor” back in the day because editors were too afraid to actually put black people in prominent roles in comics, and forget about trying to serve actual social commentary to a nearly completely white audience in the 60’s and 70’s. Today they can actually tell stories about black people in media, which is why the X-Men have become about something else in today’s comics. There’s more relevant social commentary in the first 2 episodes of Falcon and Winter Soldier than in the entirety of the Fox X-Men movies, because while you’re whining about themes, they’re actually speaking to issues.

Didn't T'Challa already fight the Klan before the metaphor became a big thing? Or am i wrong?

Honestly with how diverse the X-Men are, moreso than other teams in many ways, they could just rather easily skip to dealing with real bigotry

[Coal Tiger]

Why be subtle when it can be a big plot point? Also you nailed the issues of why this discrimination stories seem flaky now in comic films. if you indeed blink, you will miss it because many of this comic films are more focused on their action and comic bookie stuff than these themes. It should not be that way.



What you described here is not how X-MEN stories worked. LOL.
Although from the movies, Mystique real skin color being blue puts her in a far more worse position than the non white people when it comes to racism.



So she could not go to school as a child due to blue skin? sure.

Mystique has never actually been discriminated against in the Fox X-Men movies. All of her hang-ups about her skin were internal. Whatever discrimination she experienced was never on screen, and was only ever told about in vague terms to the audience. Why would she be scared to go to school as a child? As the movies clearly depict, she can become an attractive blonde woman whenever she wants. It’s just telling with no showing. All surface level, zero depth.

[Mistah K88]

It was there, but if you blinked you'd miss it. It's when Cap saved the POWs, the Asian guy walked up and and I think Dugan said, "Oh what, we have to take everyone now?" And the Asian guy gets in his face and says, "Hey! I'm from Frenso, Ace!" It was a subtle reference to the anti-Japanese prejudice in America at the time.

Oh I remember that... Sorry about that.

Speaking of X-Men, Darwin was done DIRTY in First Class. The movie took place in 1962...if anything being a mutant should have been the LEAST of his problems considering the time period.

Though I would always joke that sooner or later there will be a Batman movie where both Joker and Killer Croc on trial, and Joker gets the insanity plea and gets sent to Arkham, while Croc gets the death penalty.

[Coal Tiger]

Didn't T'Challa already fight the Klan before the metaphor became a big thing? Or am i wrong?

Honestly with how diverse the X-Men are, moreso than other teams in many ways, they could just rather easily skip to dealing with real bigotry

The klan stuff didn’t happen until the 70’s, the X-Men were in full swing by then.

[numberthirty]

Why be subtle when it can be a big plot point? Also you nailed the issues of why this discrimination stories seem flaky now in comic films. if you indeed blink, you will miss it because many of this comic films are more focused on their action and comic bookie stuff than these themes. It should not be that way.

...

Because not every inch of a painting should be safety orange just because it is something that an artist could do.

Beating the audience over the head with something presumes that they are too stupid to get it if it is done in a subtle fashion.

Since someone clearly got it(never mind that they had almost "Zero..." trouble pointing it out in this thread...)?

It is pretty clear that the audience did not need to be hit over the head repeatedly with it.

[CosmiComic]

The klan stuff didn’t happen until the 70’s, the X-Men were in full swing by then.

Ok thanks. Still, Idk if that makes the metaphor especially useful even back then

[Coal Tiger]

Ok thanks. Still, Idk if that makes the metaphor especially useful even back then

From my reading, the metaphor didn’t start until like 68 when Iceman nearly got lynched, and the word “mutie” started getting thrown around. The metaphor is what gave the X-Men their relevance back then, and gave them their “us against the world” identity that really resonated with adolescents for a few decades there.

[Castle]

First of all, Killmonger *is* an American. Maybe you missed that in your deep reading of the film. Second, he wasn’t supposed to be like Magneto because mutants aren’t a suitable stand-in for black people or any other race. .

Killmonger is an African or at least meant to be, Wakanda is an African country. so by your own rules, the cast of the film should have been just born and breed African actors. Very similar to how the film Captain Philips chose to hire only Soliman actors to play the pirates.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Erik_...16)#Early_Life

Michael B jordan said, part of the inspiration of the character came from Magneto, but the movie proved him wrong because unlike Magneto, Killmonger has no depth and was more portrayed in the film as angry black male stereotype villain who barely highlighted what his vision was in the film.

mutants aren’t a suitable stand-in for black people or any other race. The mutant metaphor was always a poor substitute for actual racial issues because there’s a difference between being afraid of a person who has dark skin and being afraid of a person who can blow up a mountain by looking at it. People would accept the “mutant metaphor” back in the day because editors were too afraid to actually put black people in prominent roles in comics, and forget about trying to serve actual social commentary to a nearly completely white audience in the 60’s and 70’s.

Huh? So let me just ignore this for now , because this is now the narrative that is going to try and justify comedy xmen from MCU and look at the facts of the series.

The mutant metaphor was meant to be a metaphor of any group who has been disfranchised in history that extended to LGBTs, Jews, Gyppies and Many people of color and the 70s, 80s and 90s stories started extending the roster to include actual POC colours and other ethnicities. Such as Storm who was black and became the leader, kitty who was jewish, Forge who was native American, Jubilee who was Asian, Gambit who was cajun , NorthStar who was gay and even Nightcrawler that appeared to look demonic but marvel gave him a Christian angle to add another dimension.

The idea that there is a difference between the fictional people born with genetic mutant genes and the real world parallel wont ... does not fly because the common theme is fear that these people are somehow dangerous ad must be stopped or controlled or exterminated in the marvel universe. This was how the holocaust came to be in world war 2 and this is why African American did not have rights. The idea it is a poor substitute is false. if it was, it would never have worked in the first place.

People would accept the “mutant metaphor” back in the day because editors were too afraid to actually put black people in prominent roles in comics, and forget about trying to serve actual social commentary to a nearly completely white audience in the 60’s and 70’s. Today they can actually tell stories about black people in media, which is why the X-Men have become about something else in today’s comics. There’s more relevant social commentary in the first 2 episodes of Falcon and Winter Soldier than in the entirety of the Fox X-Men movies, because while you’re whining about themes, they’re actually speaking to issues.

I did not see falcon and winter solider but I read this review's and followed the fan discussion, what I gathered was that falcon and winter solider felt more woke than actually more conscious. If it did better than any of the xmen movies, I am sure the true substance would have shown but the reception is not adding up, despite the hype. The takeawy from falcon and winter solider so far was...it could have been better. it was an average series even the final episode reception was mixed to negative at best. I read the reviews of that at least. No film or tv show can handle themes that deeply and get that kind of generic reception. I have know this because I have seen The Wire. a show that has made many number 1 list of best TV show of all time. Infact the reception of falcon and winter solider is much weaker than Wandavsion and I saw Wandavision.

X-Men is meant to be A-Political this is the reason no one can ever call it woke or preachy or one sided. Falcon and Winter Solider seem to have missed this. why? I keep on hearing how falcon and winter solider have tackled this themes but no one has ever cared to discuss it in-depth and this is the difference when we talk about xmen. we can talk about the themes in depth.

Also since Falcon and Winter Solider was a tv series, maybe your best comparison would be XMEN TAS not the movies. this is the reason I rather stick to X1 and Black Panther only because both are movies and have roughly the same equal time frame to discuss this themes and it is not close between both.

[Coal Tiger]

Killmonger is an African or at least meant to be, Wakanda is an African country. so by your own rules, the cast of the film should have been just born and breed African actors. Very similar to how the film Captain Philips chose to hire only Soliman actors to play the pirates.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Erik_...16)#Early_Life

Michael B jordan said, part of the inspiration of the character came from Magneto, but the movie proved him wrong because unlike Magneto, Killmonger has no depth and was more portrayed in the film as angry black male villain who barely highlighted what his vision was in the film.



Huh? So let me just ignore this for now , because this is now the narrative that is going to try and justify comedy xmen from MCU and look at the facts of the series.

The mutant metaphor was meant to be a metaphor of any group who has been disfranchised in history that extended to LGBTs, Jews, Gyppies and Many people of color and the 70s, 80s and 90s stories started extending the roster to include actual POC colours and other ethnicities. Such as Storm who was black and became the leader, kitty who was jewish, Forge who was native American, Jubilee who was Asian, Gambit who was cajun and even Nightcrawler that appeared to look demonic but marvel gave him a Christian angle to add another dimension.

The idea that there is a difference between the fictional people born with genetic mutant genes and the real world parallel wont ... does not fly because the common theme is fear that these people are somehow dangerous ad must be stopped or controlled or exterminated in the marvel universe. This was how the holocaust came to be in world war 2 and this is why African American did not have rights. The idea it is a poor substitute is false. if it was, it would never have worked in the first place.



I did not see falcon and winter solider but I read this review's and followed the fan discussion, what I gathered was that falcon and winter solider felt more woke than actually more conscious. If it did better than any of the xmen movies, I am sure the true substance would have shown but the reception is not adding up. The conesisus if falcon and winter solider so far was...it could have been better. it was an average series even the final episode reception was mixed to negative at best. No film or tv show can handle themes that deeply and get that reception. I have know this because I have seen The Wire.

X-Men is meant to be A-Political this is the reason no one can ever call it woke or preachy or one sided. Falcon and Winter Solider seem to have missed this. why?

I keep on hearing how falcon and winter solider have tackled this themes but no one has ever cared to discuss it in-depth and this is the difference when we talk about xmen. we can talk about the themes in depth.



Also since Falcon and Winter Solider was a tv series, maybe your best comparison would be an XMEN TAS not the movies. this is the reason I rather stick to X1 and Black Panther only because both are movies and have roughly the same time frame to dicuss this themes and it is not close between both.

You should probably see the things you’re attempting to talk about so you don’t come off as ignorant.

[CosmiComic]

From my reading, the metaphor didn’t start until like 68 when Iceman nearly got lynched, and the word “mutie” started getting thrown around. The metaphor is what gave the X-Men their relevance back then, and gave them their “us against the world” identity that really resonated with adolescents for a few decades there.

Ok. I don't think it works as a substitute for any actual prejudice though

[Coal Tiger]

Ok. I don't think it works as a substitute for any actual prejudice though

Oh, it doesn’t. People love to pretend it does though. They drag out sayings like “people are afraid of what they don’t understand” which kind of addresses real world bigotry, but when applied to the X-Men… what level of understanding would make someone less afraid of a man who can flip the earths magnetic poles and also hates you because your genes are different? The metaphor simply doesn’t work.

[numberthirty]

Killmonger is an African or at least meant to be, Wakanda is an African country. so by your own rules, the cast of the film should have been just born and breed African actors. Very similar to how the film Captain Philips chose to hire only Soliman actors to play the pirates.

...

You are objectively incorrect.

[Coal Tiger]

You are objectively incorrect.

My dude was born in Oakland. How do you miss that?

[Castle]

Because not every inch of a painting should be safety orange just because it is something that an artist could do.

Beating the audience over the head with something presumes that they are too stupid to get it if it is done in a subtle fashion.

Since someone clearly got it(never mind that they had almost "Zero..." trouble pointing it out in this thread...)?

It is pretty clear that the audience did not need to be hit over the head repeatedly with it.

No, sort of disagree. because this already happened.



Singer said 20 years ago that this themes should be the big plot point. he proved his own theory right.

It is pretty clear that the audience did not need to be hit over the head repeatedly with it.

Not really. LOL.

Please see Batman Begins, but only this time interchange the discrimination big plot with crime themes.