Discussions of discrimination in superhero tv and film

[numberthirty]

As for this whole bit?...

...

Make that more Claremont 70s and 80s X-MEN and the history they say was over. though Stan can get some credit.

This phrase said by Magneto...by any means necessary,



Was said by Malcom X first, not Magneto.

A person making a film in 2000 does not somehow change history as far as what Comic Book Writers were actually doing decades before.

One has nothing to do with the other.

[Coal Tiger]

As for this whole bit?...



A person making a film in 2000 does not somehow change history as far as what Comic Book Writers were actually doing decades before.

One has nothing to do with the other.

Xavier = MLK, Magneto = Malcom X is truly the hack trope that won’t die. No wonder Singer loved it.

[Castle]

What do the movies say about these settings? Nothing, they are set-dressing. While First Class was the best X-Men movie, it abandons any recognizable depiction of the holocaust to make Magneto secretly tormented by another mutant who wanted to exploit his power.

This is not true that they said nothing, please read the entire screenplay of the film. I am too tired to type long. Technically How did Magneto meet Xavier again? because Magneto would not let his holocaust trauma go, after 20 years or so. which is the same thing for many of the real victims. to say it was abandon is false. Magneto did do therapy with Charles, that lead to that awesome scene where he lift a submarine from the ocean by using serenity and not rage. This did not happen with Killmonger, because Killmonger was not shown to be oppressed or to have the trauma. this are real deep themes. not found in black panther.

It has nothing to say about civil rights or the Cold War, they are just background. And when the background gets too restrictive, they have a secret sci-fi jet that does all the things the Jet from the 90’s could do. The movie merely cashes in on 60’s nostalgia fueled almost entirely by the success of Mad Men, they even use one of the actresses from the show.

This is not true either. lol.

How can they be background when the entire third arc was magneto and xavier arguing about if the USA or USSR soldiers should die and magneto uses his holocaust past to explain why they all should die, not to mention Xavier told him earlier if they helped in the cold war conflict, mutants will get civil rights and Magneto tells him he is naïve because based on the his past as a holocaust survivor , the world will turn on them.



Can anyone really put the final act scene where Magneto tried to kill the USSR/USA soldiers in the same level as the play station CGI dinosaur rex scene in black panther where they all fight about who is king? something that was already done better in thor 1 with better effects and emotional depth because at least Loki and thor had a brotherly relationship even if what seem to tear them apart was on philosophical differences like Magneto and XAVIER POV on discrimination.

The movie merely cashes in on 60’s nostalgia fueled almost entirely by the success of Mad Men, they even use one of the actresses from the show.

oh dear, when people are now saying they hired an actress that was not even the star of the movie and claiming the 60s era setting was based of mad men nostalgia and not the obvious logical comics setting that started of in the 60s and when the real civil rights movement was also going on...huh? I think we got the throw back and message when they discussed their civil right stuff on the Lincoln memorial that MLK also gave the speech. Here is the proof

x-lincoln.jpg

The idea that x-men first class was all about mad men is based on lies. it was about the 1963 Uncanny X-MEN comic book that was first published by marvel. reason the film also takes place in 1963 during the real civil rights movement of the 1960s.

[Coal Tiger]

The movie takes place around the Cuban missile crisis, which happened in 1962.

[Username taken]

Xavier = MLK, Magneto = Malcom X is truly the hack trope that won’t die. No wonder Singer loved it.

Exactly

The whole Xavier/Magneto is similar to MLK/Magneto is a lazy trope. It’s such a poor surface level comparison that pretty much make no sense under the slightest scrutiny.

[Username taken]

I wonder why no other series can show other comic movies having real villains that made people think of david duke, the most infamous grand wizard of the KKK who is still alive today and working, it does not really work objectively and does not define tangibility.

I know this is hard issue for the MCU with XMEN coming to the MCU, but I cannot change much of history because it shows some of the flaws of why Marvel presently needs to move away more from light hearted action driven movies. it is because of these themes that xmen handled so well that the movies don't qualify as light hearted.

Where you look at scene like this, there is barely any credibly point , why this has age badly. There is no proof, just words said from another supposedly rival series, that should not even be called a rivalry because they were not intended to be on the same level because Fiege has said, MCU leans more for kids, and Singer made it clear, his movies were more for adults and boy, does it show.



this was a comic film that avoided many action scenes but worked more on philosophy and intellectual depth between the two leads Xavier and Magneto. a far contrast from a film like black panther that felt it needed the characters to fight 2 times in less than 30 minutes that was more about the throne than discrimination themes or even falcon and winter solider where the action was said to have undermined the plot and one thing about films in general or a series that went one sided political POV , If I trust the reviews when what a film like xmen 1 did was portray prejudice in way that was A-Political. Falcon and Winter Solider should have done this to avoid any Woke accusation. Wokeness ages badly and Additionally it is the action driven films that tend to age also badly because the story comes of short.

It is sad, that 20 year movie is standing the test of time on its own merit. As I said, I have only seen few on the MCU love only movie end that say it the film has aged badly which is not really the point of this thread because this thread is to show what discrimination has been like in movies and you can find about 8 scenes in X1 that highlighted this themes for a fact

No offense, you didn’t even know that Killmonger was born in the US.

That pretty invalidates your opinion on BP because you don’t even know what exactly you’re taking about.

Like I mentioned some weeks back, try and actually watch the media you comment on.

The X-men movie producers had their heart in the right place but a lot of it came off as embarrassing. Especially when actual POC like Darwin gets killed off ridiculously and New Mutants changed the race of Roberto DaCosta.

[Username taken]

Idk what to even say. I know the X-Men's heart is in the right place, but it's not real representation. And to think otherwise makes no sense to me

That’s the point.

The X-men movies aren’t making any profound statements on discrimination because they are firmly rooted in the metaphor.

It’s a far cry from stuff like The Boys showing just how easily neo-nazism and political extremism can be mainstreamed. Or Falcon and The Winter Soldier highlighting the horrors of the Tuskegee experiments (which was lifted straight from the comics).

[Killerbee911]

That’s the point.

The X-men movies aren’t making any profound statements on discrimination because they are firmly rooted in the metaphor.

It’s a far cry from stuff like The Boys showing just how easily neo-nazism and political extremism can be mainstreamed. Or Falcon and The Winter Soldier highlighting the horrors of the Tuskegee experiments (which was lifted straight from the comics).

I would disagree with that the X-men does make a lot of profound statements on discrimination but a lot of is also lost in the setting with stuff like mutants are all intents are born "superior" to humans, You do have some legit reason to be afraid of mutants just because of sheer damage potential of some abilities,etc. When you try to sit down and have a convo on the metaphor , it is sometimes lost because mutants are "the oppressed" AND "The next stage of human evolution". And more talking about it especially in Krakoa where mutants have embrace their specialness the metaphor lost to many people who are seeing mutants as the Ubermensch. And because that to me they are better using a PoC or whatever issue they are trying to tell rather than metaphor because sometimes the X-men is the story of group of people who are better and special than you and they are going to inherit the earth.

[numberthirty]

This is not true that they said nothing, please read the entire screenplay of the film. I am too tired to type long. Technically How did Magneto meet Xavier again? because Magneto would not let his holocaust trauma go, after 20 years or so. which is the same thing for many of the real victims. to say it was abandon is false. Magneto did do therapy with Charles, that lead to that awesome scene where he lift a submarine from the ocean by using serenity and not rage. This did not happen with Killmonger, because Killmonger was not shown to be oppressed or to have the trauma. this are real deep themes. not found in black panther.


...

To put this simply...

If someone looks at just the clip of Killmonger and they do not see the that the oppression on display straight up dwarfs what Magneto went through?

It is most likely because they have just decided to turn a blind eye to that fact.

Never mind that the entire "Xavier/MLK...Magneto/Malcom X" trope is essentially worthless if someone is intent on undercutting the fact that MLK and Malcolm did everything they ever did because of the degree to which their people had been(and continue to be...) oppressed in America.

Killmonger is a part of that even if someone does not want to admit it.

[Username taken]

I would disagree with that the X-men does make a lot of profound statements on discrimination but a lot of is also lost in the setting with stuff like mutants are all intents are born "superior" to humans, You do have some legit reason to be afraid of mutants just because of sheer damage potential of some abilities,etc. When you try to sit down and have a convo on the metaphor , it is sometimes lost because mutants are "the oppressed" AND "The next stage of human evolution". And more talking about it especially in Krakoa where mutants have embrace their specialness the metaphor lost to many people who are seeing mutants as the Ubermensch. And because that to me they are better using a PoC or whatever issue they are trying to tell rather than metaphor because sometimes the X-men is the story of group of people who are better and special than you and they are going to inherit the earth.

I largely agree with this.

The comics are trying to say to something but a lot of it is lost because of the overall backdrop.

[Castle]

That’s the point.

The X-men movies aren’t making any profound statements on discrimination because they are firmly rooted in the metaphor.

It’s a far cry from stuff like The Boys showing just how easily neo-nazism and political extremism can be mainstreamed. Or Falcon and The Winter Soldier highlighting the horrors of the Tuskegee experiments (which was lifted straight from the comics).

This is quite false again, because metaphors in writing mostly fiction are considered one of the best and smartest way to make a statement. This is a writing fact backed up by many great writers like CS Lewis.

It’s a far cry from stuff like The Boys showing just how easily neo-nazism and political extremism can be mainstreamed. Or Falcon and The Winter Soldier highlighting the horrors of the Tuskegee experiments (which was lifted straight from the comics).

The boys is more satire, and very hard R. The Boys is what Deadpool would be if deadpool was not comedy.

Or Falcon and The Winter Soldier highlighting the horrors of the Tuskegee experiments (which was lifted straight from the comics).

If this was netflix, sure but a disney plus show with an average reception?

I would be looking at the experiment issues covered in the movies. though different from F and WS, the same themes are still similar. Even what is seen as a bad xmen film like xmen origins, already showed the horrors of when a specific group of people are targeted and experimented on because they are different , but you can use X2 when wolverine a mutant was experimented on with brutal results. Did falcon and winter solider, show the type of experiment results on a Disney plus show? A DISNEY PLUS show with this amount of blood and savagery after somebody got experimented on for being different? this is the closet you will get to the Boys in a pg movie.



Also don't forget that the main issue with Mystique in DOFP was that she wanted to kill Trask because he experimented violently on mutants because of his own wrapped senses of prejudice including Angel who was black.

Magneto also says in first class, that that how the system has always work. first they roundup People, mark them send to camps and experiment on them and get rid of their bodies. Magneto himself was experimented on as a young kid because he was Jewish also. this is shown in a flash back scene in first class.So this are just movies, How Marvel made any movie in recent years that has even cared about this stuff? NO.

If you want to use a TV Show that should be compared directly to Falcon Soider. Watch X-MEN TAS Fugitive 1 and 2,

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-winter-so...erica-history/

Isaiah Bradley had it bad, I will give him that but at least, he is alive. How many mutants were alive after first class when trask started experimenting on them? Also I will also say, Isiah story in F and WS like Magneto is also fiction meets some reality. because your super serum that makes you become Captain America is not real life anymore than becoming a mutant.

In XMEN TAS 1 and 2 time fugitive. the mutants had it much worse than Isiaah because the experimentation on mutant created the legacy virus and wiped out the mutant population than later spread to humans and started killing humans and mutants got blamed again and became ostracised.

Now the kind of story line, I will assure will never see the light if day in any MCU X-men film or disney plus tv as told in the comics. Falcon and WS feels like childsplay, compared to the legacy virus. which once you look at it beyond comics, is actually HIV/AIDS and the show did deal with issues. Let see Marvel go that far now even with XMEN now. XMEN TAS has done this already on a Saturday morning show. Which is why I am asking. how Falcon and WS, is not as acclaimed as XMEN TAS in content of story? The reason must be because it probably did not have enough depth to be and the action stuff must have indeed taken more time than the story. that is the only logical reason.

[Castle]

The movie takes place around the Cuban missile crisis, which happened in 1962.

1962-1963. It is no big change.

Additionally . I think it went too outlandish with what you knew were absurd claims that First Class was about Mad Men. I mean really? they made First Class because of January Jones? Um, you do this movie was made when Jennifer Lawrence was becoming a big star and Jones was not even as famous as Kevin Bacon or barely had the strong indie critical acclaim film credits to her name like James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender? I am just speaking truth there on the star power of all these actors in 2011.

Seriously I have never understood the strategy of pretending xmen movies never covered this stuff only because they are not MCU movies. you do know this means nothing right in terms of truthful accountability.

[Jokerz79]

X-Men is my favorite comic property but IMO shows and films like Black Lightning, Doom Patrol, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and Black Panther did better with dealing with bigotry because they were actually dealing with real bigotry and not a metaphor.

That's the inherent issue with the X-Men it's a metaphor which for all the claims of the MCU being for kids it's the X-Men that's the real kids property because that's who metaphors and allegories are for that to teach kids to not judge others for being different. But let's face it if someone haven't figured out bigotry is wrong by adulthood no Superhero movie is going to change their mind. It will take something more meaning and real for that to happen.

The 2nd issue with the X-Men as a metaphor is Mutants are a potential threat. In X-Men (2000) Rogue accidentally put a boy into a cina, Xavier told Logan he discovered as a child he could read and control minds, and Cyclops took the roof off a train station when Toad took off his visor. Can we honestly say Kelly was 100% wrong for wanting Mutant registration? He may be coming from it from a place of bigotry but there is some validation in the XCU for it and that makes mutants a poor metaphor for real minorities.

As for X-Men TAS my favorite X-Men put to film but it has aging issues. They and Spider-Man TAS another favorite of mine say destroy a ridiculous amount of times due to not being allowed to mention death.

[Castle]

X-Men is my favorite comic property but IMO shows and films like Black Lightning, Doom Patrol, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and Black Panther did better with dealing with bigotry because they were actually dealing with real bigotry and not a metaphor.

X-MEN already dealt with real bigotry as well using metaphor. This is becoming a fun repeat now.

dealing with bigotry because they were actually dealing with real bigotry and not a metaphor.

It cannot be real bigotry because they are all fiction. This comic films are not real like Spike Lee's Malcom X. which is why it is down to how well or how deep you write the fictional stories of the characters and this where others fall short because they dont care enough about making this themes the central focus. they all stay more in the action driven comic bookie realms.

Also the reason people say MCU is for kids, is because Disney says so and restricts what they see as ''mature stories'' which is actually telling this themes in real depth and primary focus story telling, something Bryan Singer did because he said, he never saw XMEN as a kids movie. This is not my opinions, this is Disney and singer own opinions of comic films and this is why many of the content found in Logan or X1 are not in the MCU movies. Even some of the mature stuff in phase 1 MCU are not in phase 3 MCU.

As for X-Men TAS my favorite X-Men put to film but it has aging issues. They and Spider-Man TAS another favorite of mine say destroy a ridiculous amount of times due to not being allowed to mention death.

And yet this cartoon still has a far more mature content than anything marvel is putting out now.



I dont see it more as not mentioning death, I see it more as watching a cartoon wolverine walks past graveyards of many characters. which is actually more compelling. Please don't forget that XMEN TAS was not intended to be comedy as originally planned. MCU movies are intended to be action- comedy. that is why their themes can be all glossed over. Also you are quite wrong on not mentioning death. since there are two episodes called
Till Death Do Us Part part 1 and 2. I am sure kids read that when it aired.

And Gambit in the episode X-Ternally yours said, thieves and assassins have been killing each other for decades. the word Kill is more sensitive than death. because Kill provokes more violence. a kids show is far better censoring the word kill than death.

Sigh once again, I am forced to read false claim about xmen from the same person who once told me Beast is more of fighter, and his fighting is more important than him being a doctor Which was not true either. lol

I think people need to stop mixing up what is likely going to come from MCU XMEN movies with the actual XMEN universe itself.

[Username taken]

This is quite false again, because metaphors in writing mostly fiction are considered one of the best and smartest way to make a statement. This is a writing fact backed up by many great writers like CS Lewis.




The boys is more satire, and very hard R. The Boys is what Deadpool would be if deadpool was not comedy.



If this was netflix, sure but a disney plus show with an average reception?

I would be looking at the experiment issues covered in the movies. though different from F and WS, the same themes are still similar. Even what is seen as a bad xmen film like xmen origins, already showed the horrors of when a specific group of people are targeted and experimented on because they are different , but you can use X2 when wolverine a mutant was experimented on with brutal results. Did falcon and winter solider, show the type of experiment results on a Disney plus show? A DISNEY PLUS show with this amount of blood and savagery after somebody got experimented on for being different? this is the closet you will get to the Boys in a pg movie.



Also don't forget that the main issue with Mystique in DOFP was that she wanted to kill Trask because he experimented violently on mutants because of his own wrapped senses of prejudice including Angel who was black.

Magneto also says in first class, that that how the system has always work. first they roundup People, mark them send to camps and experiment on them and get rid of their bodies. Magneto himself was experimented on as a young kid because he was Jewish also. this is shown in a flash back scene in first class.So this are just movies, How Marvel made any movie in recent years that has even cared about this stuff? NO.

If you want to use a TV Show that should be compared directly to Falcon Soider. Watch X-MEN TAS Fugitive 1 and 2,

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-winter-so...erica-history/

Isaiah Bradley had it bad, I will give him that but at least, he is alive. How many mutants were alive after first class when trask started experimenting on them? Also I will also say, Isiah story in F and WS like Magneto is also fiction meets some reality. because your super serum that makes you become Captain America is not real life anymore than becoming a mutant.

In XMEN TAS 1 and 2 time fugitive. the mutants had it much worse than Isiaah because the experimentation on mutant created the legacy virus and wiped out the mutant population than later spread to humans and started killing humans and mutants got blamed again and became ostracised.

Now the kind of story line, I will assure will never see the light if day in any MCU X-men film or disney plus tv as told in the comics. Falcon and WS feels like childsplay, compared to the legacy virus. which once you look at it beyond comics, is actually HIV/AIDS and the show did deal with issues. Let see Marvel go that far now even with XMEN now. XMEN TAS has done this already on a Saturday morning show. Which is why I am asking. how Falcon and WS, is not as acclaimed as XMEN TAS in content of story? The reason must be because it probably did not have enough depth to be and the action stuff must have indeed taken more time than the story. that is the only logical reason.

Mutants don't exist, so there's no direct comparison Falcon and WS or BP.

I mean, you haven't even watched Black Panther or Falcon and WS, so I don't know why you keep wasting your time trying to argue against something you haven't even watched. You're the same person that said "Things Fall Apart" was high fantasy.

Don't waste your time and data cost to argue and comment about things you haven't watched. It really portrays you as being very ignorant and/or very dishonest. There's a reason why you haven't been able to convince anyone here with your points.

Spamming links to youtube and other websites don't help your arguments either.