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  1. #226
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I remember one X-men issue where a mutant suddenly manifested the power to vaporize all life around him. He couldn't control it or turn it off. He killed over 200 people without even knowing what was going on.

    They sent Wolverine to kill him because Logan could survive his powers and they didn't want it getting out that a mutant had killed so many people without even knowing what he was doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Even recently during the Bendis run, the X-men had to "unbirth" Matthew Malloy because the guy was so powerful that could bend reality.

    It's crazy because there's been a number of mutants that just by manifesting their powers they leave death and destruction in their wake.
    I think that moment was also from Bendis' Ultimate X-Men run, if I remember right.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's his mutant power.

    Claws
    Heighten senses
    Healing Factor
    Is Badass
    Don't forget drawing the attention from everyone else (might be more of a movie power though)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    It is not only that it would make sense that regular humans would fear mutant powers, that limits how useful mutants are as a metaphor for minority groups, but also that being a mutant comes with awesome literally superhuman powers.

    That is pretty substantially different from having a different color skin or being from a different country or practicing a different faith. Just being in a minority group is not an inherent advantage, while having super powers by definition is an advantage over the non-powered. There is a trade-off, to having people discriminate against you, but being able to control fire or having indestructible skin or whatever. No such trade-off, for just being hated for something you had no ability to choose.
    Agreed

  3. #228
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    CW's Black Lightning handles discrimination fairly well I'd say.

  4. #229
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    CW's Black Lightning handles discrimination fairly well I'd say.
    As someone who watches that on the regular, I'd generally agree. I did like the twist that in Black Lightning's corner, spoilers:
    superpowers existed primarily due to the U.S. government experimenting with a vaccine that was apparently supposed to tamp down on "social unrest" in black neighborhoods and cities, but actually altered the DNA of those injected with it to give them abilities beyond those of ordinary humans. Then Season 3 revealed that the first metahuman was a black soldier experimented on by the U.S. military during World War II, like Isaiah Bradley from Truth: Red, White, and Black (and more recently, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier), only he defected from the U.S. out of disgust for the injustices he endured at its hands despite his service.
    end of spoilers
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #230
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    Really late to the party, but;

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Did the fox movies race bend any character? no. because it was not necessary.
    Let's see, not counting borderline examples, like biracial actors Halle Berry, Olivia Munn, and Blu Hunt, being cast as older Storm, Psylocke, and Dani Moonstar (since it's unclear if the characters are also supposed to be considered biracial, too), we have:

    - Bolivar Trask 1.0 (The Last Stand): White character depicted as a black character

    - Agent Zero (Origins: Wolverine): White character depicted as biracial (white/Korean)

    - Kayla Silverfox (Origins: Wolverine): First Nations character depicted as being of mostly European descent (I've heard somewhere that Lynn Collins has some native American ancestry, but have been unable to verify that and it was a small percentage at that.)

    - "Emma Frost" 1.0 (Origins: Wolverine): White character possibly being biracial (white/First Nations)

    - Blink (Days of Future Past): White character depicted as Chinese (Korean-American in the Gifted TV show)

    - Sunspot (Days of Future Past, New Mutants): Black character depicted by non-black actors

    - X-23 (Logan): white character depicted as biracial (white/Latina).

    - Dr. Reyes (New Mutants): Black character depicted as a non-black character

    For someone who goes on and on about how you know X-Men did everything better, you seem to have some gaps in your theories.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #231
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    I don't think X-23 was race-bent. Otherwise I agree. And race-bending the Black characters into White ones was especially bad in a series preaching about equality.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think X-23 was race-bent.
    Mik your posts always invite someone disagreeing with you I guess I will wait and see who brings up the age old take "that in Europe I'm White but in U.S i'm Hispanic or some other category" discussion.
    Last edited by Tofali; 05-16-2021 at 10:43 PM.

  8. #233
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    Um, ok? I just thought the actress was European so it wasn't race-bending

  9. #234
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Let's see, not counting borderline examples, like biracial actors Halle Berry, Olivia Munn, and Blu Hunt, being cast as older Storm, Psylocke, and Dani Moonstar (since it's unclear if the characters are also supposed to be considered biracial, too), we have:
    I'm not a huge X-Men fan, but hasn't Psylocke at times been a white British lady's mind stuck in an Asian woman's body or vice versa? A white/Asian biracial actress for that character might be an improvement.

  10. #235
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Um, ok? I just thought the actress was European so it wasn't race-bending
    Yeah, but the character's movie backstory makes it clear that she's not completely European, so it still counts for the narrative purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm not a huge X-Men fan, but hasn't Psylocke at times been a white British lady's mind stuck in an Asian woman's body or vice versa? A white/Asian biracial actress for that character might be an improvement.
    Yeah, my understanding it that there are a few layers of retcons of this, but Psylocke started out as the very white Betsy Braddock, who got her bodies swapped with an Asian woman named Kawannon. Braddock in Kawannon's body was then given the Psylocke codename and became the character we know today. Eventually, it became the catch-22 that it was basically a form of yellow face, but the setup of Psylocke being an Asian mutant martial artist was the defining nature of the character. Given the backstory and the fact that the Betsy Braddock" aspect of Psylocke was the most irrelevant part of the character, the fix was just to have the characters get back their original bodies, and Kwannon just kept the purple swimsuit and Psylocke codename.

    Even then it got pretty messy, since my understanding was that the comic that depicted Braddock's getting swapped back had Kawanon's body getting vaporized and her using technobabble to recreate the white body she was born in, and then Kawanon just showed up back in her undestroyed body with no explanation. The Fallen Angels miniseries also retconned pretty much the entire backstory, with the new idea that there was no mind swap and Kwannon had spent the whole time trapped in her own body while Braddock's mind was in control. (I like that version better, but when there were literally stories written showing Kawanon walking around in Braddock's body, something doesn't add up.)

    I think, at this point, if they were going to adapt the character, it would be best to just have Kawanon be the one and only Psylocke and skip all of the mind-swap stuff (like I said, Betsy Braddock is irrelevant to the character in terms of what the core aspects are), but before that that retcon was used, I would've agreed that the best course of action would've been to reimagine Betsy Braddock as an Asian-British character (possibly biracial) and just forget that there had ever been a white Braddock (a la black Nick Fury).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  11. #236
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Even recently during the Bendis run, the X-men had to "unbirth" Matthew Malloy because the guy was so powerful that could bend reality.

    It's crazy because there's been a number of mutants that just by manifesting their powers they leave death and destruction in their wake.
    This is not completely true. lol. because like I said asked how destructive is 3 headed John, Kitty Pryde or even Dazzler or Stacy X , who used her mutant powers for prostitution? I guess that can be seen as dangerous, but not as we are looking at it here.

    In the factual xmen universe, the powers manifesting is considered or classified more as puberty than destruction. this is the occurring term of the universe. that when they experience their powers for the first time, it feels more like a girl's first experience her cycle of mensuration. which even makes the metaphor thing far more relatable or yes, sometimes awkward but again it adds to the relatability or on the race front, people finding out who they really are , meaning they could be of Jewish decent or of black decent, or discover they are into boys or girls and may not have realised that until then.

    Mutant discovery is more of a life changing personal moment. that is how the story is mostly written in xmen and I say this as a truth because I read the comics growing up. What you and some are saying is factually and not completely true.

    I left this discussion thread because all that has been said has been said, but this thread needs to get back to discussing the themes of discrimination in comic films than a MCU vs X-Men debate not based on the total facts of both series or let's us all try and pretend none of the theme in xmen has ever worked because we know MCU XMEN will be light hearted action comedy with none of this themes present because Disney has said they can only do light hearted fun action driven film and this themes can not be treated as such , if you really want to do it right.

    I just dont see the point, because it is not as if anyone can erase everyone from watching the past cartoons and show where these themes were so overly present. I mean how can anyone forget about this , even if some of us find it corny...Mutant and Proud



    It only feels less corny when you hear the real James Brown song called Black and Proud.

    this is like my 10th clip or something about discrimination . I am getting bored because it feels as if the discrimination theme issue is just a one way discussion of one superhero series only.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-17-2021 at 12:04 AM.

  12. #237
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm not a huge X-Men fan, but hasn't Psylocke at times been a white British lady's mind stuck in an Asian woman's body or vice versa? A white/Asian biracial actress for that character might be an improvement.
    Psylocke had a complicated back story, even I that see myself as a fan never truly understood it.

    but if you are not a fan and dont even care about their movies or comics in the long run. You can just watch XMEN evolution season 3 or read one off stories like Joss Whedon XMEN Gifted.

    If you watch or at least read this stuff, your mind will be more empowered on this issue as just a general comic book fan. they really nailed this issue and themes of discrimination in ways that for marvel in 2021, this cannot be comic book adaptions.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-17-2021 at 12:05 AM.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Really late to the party, but;



    Let's see, not counting borderline examples, like biracial actors Halle Berry, Olivia Munn, and Blu Hunt, being cast as older Storm, Psylocke, and Dani Moonstar (since it's unclear if the characters are also supposed to be considered biracial, too), we have:

    - Bolivar Trask 1.0 (The Last Stand): White character depicted as a black character

    - Agent Zero (Origins: Wolverine): White character depicted as biracial (white/Korean)

    - Kayla Silverfox (Origins: Wolverine): First Nations character depicted as being of mostly European descent (I've heard somewhere that Lynn Collins has some native American ancestry, but have been unable to verify that and it was a small percentage at that.)

    - "Emma Frost" 1.0 (Origins: Wolverine): White character possibly being biracial (white/First Nations)

    - Blink (Days of Future Past): White character depicted as Chinese (Korean-American in the Gifted TV show)

    - Sunspot (Days of Future Past, New Mutants): Black character depicted by non-black actors

    - X-23 (Logan): white character depicted as biracial (white/Latina).

    - Dr. Reyes (New Mutants): Black character depicted as a non-black character

    For someone who goes on and on about how you know X-Men did everything better, you seem to have some gaps in your theories.
    The New Mutants was particularly egregious in this regard because Sunspot is a character who's race seems to have changed over time.

    Sunspot in particular is one of those characters that's been "whitened up" over time when he was originally Afro-Brazilian.

    But when it's said and done, this is why I don't really take the X-men movies as serious when discussing discrimination in movies.
    Black Lives Matter.

  14. #239
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Really late to the party, but;



    Let's see, not counting borderline examples, like biracial actors Halle Berry, Olivia Munn, and Blu Hunt, being cast as older Storm, Psylocke, and Dani Moonstar (since it's unclear if the characters are also supposed to be considered biracial, too), we have:

    - Bolivar Trask 1.0 (The Last Stand): White character depicted as a black character

    - Agent Zero (Origins: Wolverine): White character depicted as biracial (white/Korean)

    - Kayla Silverfox (Origins: Wolverine): First Nations character depicted as being of mostly European descent (I've heard somewhere that Lynn Collins has some native American ancestry, but have been unable to verify that and it was a small percentage at that.)

    - "Emma Frost" 1.0 (Origins: Wolverine): White character possibly being biracial (white/First Nations)

    - Blink (Days of Future Past): White character depicted as Chinese (Korean-American in the Gifted TV show)

    - Sunspot (Days of Future Past, New Mutants): Black character depicted by non-black actors

    - X-23 (Logan): white character depicted as biracial (white/Latina).

    - Dr. Reyes (New Mutants): Black character depicted as a non-black character

    For someone who goes on and on about how you know X-Men did everything better, you seem to have some gaps in your theories.
    Race bending is more of distraction now, reason no one but the media will hype Black Superman. Honestly how come no one cared that Nick Fury used to be white than he is black? The Nick Fury race bending was praised 20 years ago and no one said it was woke or done for tokenism. I will go as far as to say black Nick Fury is more popular than white Nick Fury and I know the answer to why this is so. back then 20 years ago, diversity push had more substance and even the few characters that were race bent got as much fleshing out and depth than the original white characters. is this the same now in 2021? I don't feel so.

    I never got invested with Magma in the comics. I only started to care in Evolution because her story was more interesting, not because she was black only. Although I thought it was great there was another main black character on the show after Storm and Evan and Nightcrawler's girlfriend whose name I cannot remember....Amanda???



    This version of this character in X-MEN evolution was a good character, not for her race only, but her power set and character development and sometimes fun bubbly teen booper personality. Also she had one of the best part of the discrimination theme in the series. she was one of the few that actually wanted to fight back violently against her oppressors by threaten to blow up their cars if they did not stop harassing or attempting to beat up her and her friends. which to me was perfect became she is a black character and that was what Malcom X was sometimes about when he supported violence against the KKK. (so yeah, xmen did it better. LMAO) since I am not sure a kid or teen will act like that in any Disney plus movie or show. WB show? yes. This stuff was not watered down at all in X-Men.


    Overall, I felt the point of why race bending does not matter is missed. it is not the race of the character in fiction but the story of discrimination told that is the main draw. If you race bend all the X1 or First Class characters, the story of discrimination will still hold up in some form. All these superhero characters are nothing more but tools for the directors, writers , publishers to use, the question now is how far can you use these characters and that only comes by giving them great story where these themes is fully addressed and not dumbed down or easily ignored. This is what separate X-Men from the rest of the pack.

    Now I think of it for the first time, series like X-Men Evolution was extremely diverse and at the same time dealt with the discrimination themes extremely well . Even characters like Wanda in xmen evolution, her Gypsy heritage was not all that ignored from the show. I am not sure the MCU films ever alluded to this until maybe Wandavison and I dont think that was mentioned also????
    Last edited by Castle; 05-17-2021 at 02:29 AM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post

    - "Emma Frost" 1.0 (Origins: Wolverine): White character possibly being biracial (white/First Nations)

    - Blink (Days of Future Past): White character depicted as Chinese (Korean-American in the Gifted TV show)
    I looked up the actress who played Emma in Wolverine and she doesn't seem to have any First Nations ancestry. She's mentioned as being Australian of Italian descent.

    Also, Blink in the comics is supposedly a black woman from the Bahamas whose skin was made pink due to her mutation.

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