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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Carol Danvers was a character that Marvel had been interested in elevating to a mainstream player for a while, with reports of development on a Ms. Marvel film dating back to the very beginnings of the MCU. I'm not sure who pushed heavily for the name change to Captain, but it wouldn't surprise me if they honestly just didn't get the implications of downplaying Monica's role in the legacy, especially since the other prior Captain Marvels also weren't in the film, save for Mar-Vell (who dies very shortly after appearing). It seems like an attempt to try to make Danvers stand more on her own in the film adaptation (note that stupid half-Kree retcon where her mom literally tells her that her powers were always her own and not lent or given by another) without really considering what that'd mean for Monica.

    Which, unfortunately, goes back to the fact that even prior to the name change, Monica was a character who was sorely undervalued by Marvel. It's clear nobody thought she would ever be movie or TV fodder, and she was treated as a perpetual second stringer for years while Carol got her own series and multiple stints with the Avengers. Her resurgence in prominence the last decade is largely owed to Al Ewing being a huge fan and wanting to use her, as even Nextwave didn't really do much for raising her profile within the universe, sadly.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think the MCU is making great strides right now to correct a problem they shouldn't have had in the first place.

    Ike Perlmutter was a huge barrier to proper representation in the MCU but he's been gone a while and "Ike's fault!" only gets you so far, yknow?

    I do give Marvel props for the efforts we're now seeing, don't get me wrong, but why are we seeing this push only now, rather than in 2018-2019 when T'Challa and Carol both hit? Given how long these films are planned in advance there very well might be a legit logistical reason it took so long, but if that's the case I don't know about it.


    Not saying it isn't. It's total BS no matter the reason why. But I'd still rather think it happened because people were idiots and didn't consider it, rather than because they're racist sh*t bags who did it on purpose.


    I still see it on occasion.

    I don't think the hair was a problem in and of itself. In a vacuum it was, as you say, a popular real world look. But when taking into account everything else about black representation in comics and Land's work in particular (the facial features, etc)....it's perpetuating a lot of really bad habits.
    For what it's worth, let's also not forget that she was in a book with three other dark skinned African-American men and two mid-toned Latinos. Having black and brown people in comics with different shades is a good thing. In the 70's, they would have all been given the exact same shade.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Carol Danvers was a character that Marvel had been interested in elevating to a mainstream player for a while, with reports of development on a Ms. Marvel film dating back to the very beginnings of the MCU. I'm not sure who pushed heavily for the name change to Captain, but it wouldn't surprise me if they honestly just didn't get the implications of downplaying Monica's role in the legacy, especially since the other prior Captain Marvels also weren't in the film, save for Mar-Vell (who dies very shortly after appearing). It seems like an attempt to try to make Danvers stand more on her own in the film adaptation (note that stupid half-Kree retcon where her mom literally tells her that her powers were always her own and not lent or given by another) without really considering what that'd mean for Monica.
    I don't think that's fair. Monica hadn't had the Captain Marvel title for a long time when they gave it to Carol, and in the interim, Genis-Vell had a long run as Captain Marvel in his own ongoing comic. Bendis had already set up the idea of Carol taking on the Captain Marvel title in "House of M," so the surprising thing to me is that they continued with the "Ms. Marvel" title for as long as they did after that. It's completely organic for Carol to take over Mar-Vell's legacy, while Roger Stern had Monica explain that she didn't even know there was a previous Captain Marvel.

    When DeConnick and her editors finally gave Carol the "Captain Marvel" title, they brought Monica in to address the fact that she had had that title before, and that likely played a role in Monica becoming part of Carol's film franchise (the two characters had barely even met before that).

    Monica was underused by Marvel, no question, but she was underused long before they took the Captain Marvel title away from her.
    Last edited by gurkle; 05-12-2021 at 07:45 PM.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    I'm not disagreeing with that, and in fact already said that Monica had been in limbo for years before the name was taken from her. That's why I said that erasing her role in the legacy and the resulting problematic implications were likely something nobody considered back then because nobody thought we'd ever be living in a world where millions of non-comic fans actually know who Monica Rambeau is.

    That doesn't make what happened any less unfortunate for her, mind you, I just think it's something that likely didn't occur to the readership and editorial, especially since I'm guessing the people in charge of the decisions were mostly white.

  5. #80
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I don't think that's fair. Monica hadn't had the Captain Marvel title for a long time when they gave it to Carol, and in the interim, Genis-Vell had a long run as Captain Marvel in his own ongoing comic.
    I'm not sure that's quite accurate.

    In real publication time only Mar-Vell had the name "Captain Marvel" longer than Monica. Monica had it for about 14 years, before Genis came along. She was introduced in 1982 and gave up the name in 1996 to Genis who was called Legacy prior to that time. Genis had the name for about 9 years (again, actual publication time) before he took the name Photon around 2005. (Yep, he took not one but two names from Monica. Blame racism, misogyny, or both, but this is NOT normal.) Carol picked up the name in 2012. She'll catch Monica's tenure as Captain Marvel in 2026, five years from now, unless there is a regime/direction change at Marvel that gives the mantle to someone else. I personally hope that I'm still around when a LatinX or AAPI Captain Marvel gets the nod.

    In any event, it was obvious that back then there was a group at Marvel who (1.) didn't want Monica to get the name in the first place, and (2.) didn't care very much to see Monica elevated as Marvel's franchise female character. Thanks to the MCU we may finally get something close to that now, but I'm not holding my breath.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I'm not sure that's quite accurate.

    In real publication time only Mar-Vell had the name "Captain Marvel" longer than Monica. Monica had it for about 14 years, before Genis came along. She was introduced in 1982 and gave up the name in 1996 to Genis who was called Legacy prior to that time. Genis had the name for about 9 years (again, actual publication time) before he took the name Photon around 2005. (Yep, he took not one but two names from Monica. Blame racism, misogyny, or both, but this is NOT normal.) Carol picked up the name in 2012. She'll catch Monica's tenure as Captain Marvel in 2026, five years from now, unless there is a regime/direction change at Marvel that gives the mantle to someone else. I personally hope that I'm still around when a LatinX or AAPI Captain Marvel gets the nod.

    In any event, it was obvious that back then there was a group at Marvel who (1.) didn't want Monica to get the name in the first place, and (2.) didn't care very much to see Monica elevated as Marvel's franchise female character. Thanks to the MCU we may finally get something close to that now, but I'm not holding my breath.
    When gurkle says for a long time, they mean carol's run came over a decade after monica with many interims, so it's not accurate to say Carol took it from monica. There's too much separation between their runs.
    And technically carol was also binary for way longer than she was any of her other identities, but most people would think of her as Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel first That's sort of the quirk of being in limbo as a character and also speaks to general lack of importance and prestige of Marvel's Captain Marvel title, be it belonging to anyone, atleast in the past (even if individually they may have had a prestigious story like the Death of Captain Marvel)

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