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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    She led the Avengers for a time in the comics, so I'm saying if they tried that in the movies, some people would complain she doesn't deserve the position yet, because that complaint always seems to come up when a woman or PoC character is in charge, at least from what I've seen
    Yes they would but we are literally years away from another Avengers movie.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Yes they would but we are literally years away from another Avengers movie.
    That's true. Maybe she'll lead some kind of team. Idk when. I'm just thinking in hypotheticals

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    Maybe Monica will rename herself Captain Marvel, now that sharing codnames (sic) is allowed.
    I'm concerned that the MCU will lend Monica a name with Marvel in it, instead of giving her a more unique name like Spectrum. I really don't want to see her called Captain Marvel, Major Marvel, Doctor Marvel, Monica Marvel, Marvel Woman, Madame Marvel, Miss Marvelous, La Femme Marvel, or anything like that. But with them naming the next movie The Marvels, we'll probably get just that.

  4. #19
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    I don't see why people fight so hard for Monica Rambeau to be a divertive of Male character. And Yes Captain Marvel is one few characters that 2nd character is popular than original and functional the main character. I don't care I rather Black character not be legacy character of another character. I much prefer Spectrum and her own path.

    Monica Rambeau is 1000% better shape coming from Wandavision and going into "The Marvels" as her own entity. If they successful show how good she is for the next 15 years or they are going be pushing Spectrum. You won't ever have to hear "You know that Monica isn't the original Captain Marvel".

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I don't see why people fight so hard for Monica Rambeau to be a divertive of Male character. And Yes Captain Marvel is one few characters that 2nd character is popular than original and functional the main character. I don't care I rather Black character not be legacy character of another character. I much prefer Spectrum and her own path.

    Monica Rambeau is 1000% better shape coming from Wandavision and going into "The Marvels" as her own entity. If they successful show how good she is for the next 15 years or they are going be pushing Spectrum. You won't ever have to hear "You know that Monica isn't the original Captain Marvel".
    Yeah, if Monica is never called Captain Marvel, except maybe as a one-off, but goes by Spectrum (or Photon, or whatever), I'd prefer that. She doesn't need the Captain Marvel moniker any more than Spider-Man needs to tech up his suit and change his name to Iron Man 2.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I see what you mean by that. My statement was more rhetorical. Really, it's problematic how promoting diversity seems to be zero sum. And the Avengers don't have a huge number of Black heroines, although it's improving. You'd think they'd push Monica as much as they do Carol
    Exactly this.

    It doesnít always have to be a zero-sum game. Both Carol Danvers AND Monica Rambeau could have been given prominent roles even if Monica wasnít named Captain Marvel.

    As a young POC, it made myself and my brothers feel quite good about Monica back in the day when she was with the Avengers. Seeing the character pretty much get wiped away really did rub the wrong way. Especially when outside of Storm, Marvel simply didnít any other prominent powerful females of color (although Storm herself did get shafted for a while in X-men but thatís a discussion for another time).
    Black Lives Matter.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Lesson View Post
    I don’t understand Marvel’s motivation behind pushing Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel rather than Monica beyond conventional racism.
    As Captain Marvel?
    Well there are a multitude of reasons.
    Monica got the Captain Marvel name in universe through accident and outside as a placeholder since they needed someone as Captain Marvel.
    Carol on the other hand knew marvel, loved marv, was inspired by marv, got her powers awakened by marv, was Ms Marvel as an offshoot of Marv, and had an association with Kree and Skrull Lore in a way Monica never did. Monica was waaaaaaaaay more associated with the Avengers than with the Captain Marvel title in her stories written by Roger Stern beyond some hesitation in her using the name of someone she didn't even know. Carol was the more logical choice to become Captain Marvel even back in the early 80s.

    When it comes to getting done dirty, monica really can't top Avengers 200 either. I mean Carol wasn't included in Death of Captain Marvel, that's how badly she was erased, and Claremont had to do her rescue again to let her have some parting words with his grave.

    In the Mid-2000s, they were gonna give the Captain Marvel title to Gravity. Heck, they were gonna make a Ms Marvel movie starring Carol

    https://www.comicbookmovie.com/blade...9121#gs.0xbcz2

    Only reason Carol probably got the Captain Marvel title is because the character itself had earned prominence to get talks of a movie even before anyone named Captain Marvel, and it all led to her getting promoted to Captain Marvel.

    continued
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 05-09-2021 at 12:39 AM.

  8. #23
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    The mistreatment of Monica Rambeau beginning by Marvel calling her "Captain Marvel" to hold a trademark. It is very similar Kamala Khan being called Ms. Marvel. You first have to understand that before you can talk about this topic Monica and Kamala are not Miles or Wally West. Monica does not have same powers as Captain Marvel and never has, Kamala does not have the powers Carol. Monica and Kamala being name what they are named first, it would be like if Iron Man was created before Spiderman and instead of Stan Lee thinking up Spiderman he just called him Iron Boy.

    It is disrespectful imo to name original concepts legacy names to "help" them I have no problem naming character with derivate powers a derivate name that attach to that concept. Now Kamala Khan lucked into a name that is going to never be used by another character in Ms Marvel. Monica didn't get that luckily she got stuck with name that would always go back to original character if they ever brought him back and even worse they understood original character was meh but they want to use concept again. So they stripped the name from Monica to give another character who wasn't as good Monica but fit the concept better because once again Monica Rambeau was original concept that had nothing to do with Captain Marvel.

    The mistreatment of Monica Rambeau begins with her begin called Captain Marvel initially , I have zero cares for that Captain Marvel finally became big property at Marvel and Carol Danvers reap the benefit it could have easily been Genis vell or Phyla-Vell. I will side track for second to go Genis Vell in Ultimates uni was a fire design, I think it would have caught on if they pushed that



    but anyways my point I don't see success and push Captain Marvel and feel anyways because if Monica Rambeau was simply given unique name from the beginning she wouldn't be caught up the Captain Marvel mess. Monica Rambeau should have been pushed yeah but Captain Marvel legacy is mess that is root of the problem not the solution so it is annoying when anybody bring Carol and the Marvel name into discussion. Also the creator who took Photon away from Monica to give to Genis Vell did a trash move and deserve us learning their name so we can all remember that they did that trash move.

    Moving on I full expect Photon or Spectrum to used for Monica. Monica being in the Marvels doesn't mean she will be named something with Marvel. Also I wonder if "Blue" is going to show up in the Marvels.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    continued
    Now, as herself in an identity independent from the Captain Marvel name? That's a good question.

    I feel like Nextwave set her back.... hickman had plans to use her in his avengers saga but he saw what was done with her in nextwave and was like... hmmm that's a good thing going don't wanna do something that will ruin it. Ewing on the other hand used her more prominently through out his Might Avenger run, ultimates run, Avngers No Road Home run and so on, and had a subplot of her becoming an immortal light being and perhaps losing her touch with humanity. He also resolved the Nextwave/Main continuity canon in a fun way and made it canon (basically in a way the databooks earlier had suggested) and blended the two personalities.

    Back in the 90s monica had good cameos showing her leadership before her powers were fully restored again in starblast. For example operation galactic storm where she served as the level headed leader approaching the Shiar before giving the Capt Marvel name up to genis because she was kinda tired of being viewed through the lens of Mar-vell, a guy she didn't even know.
    Now ofcourse, genis actually stole her new name again (Photon) in new thunderbolts, which was a dick move editorially, especially since genis was killed shortly after permanently. Then came nextwave, as critically aclaimed as it was, it certainly fucked a lot of characters, and monica is included in that where her run as the avengers leader became a joke as did her once being captain marvel. Then Ewing is the one who showed interest in the character, and has probably written her best since stern in an ongoing role (special shout out to McDuffie who wrote her one shot though)
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 05-09-2021 at 12:47 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Now, as herself in an identity independent from the Captain Marvel name? That's a good question.

    I feel like Nextwave set her back.... hickman had plans to use her in his avengers saga but he saw what was done with her in nextwave and was like... hmmm that's a good thing going don't wanna do something that will ruin it. Ewing on the other hand used her more prominently through out his Might Avenger run, ultimates run, Avngers No Road Home run and so on, and had a subplot of her becoming an immortal light being and perhaps losing her touch with humanity. He also resolved the Nextwave/Main continuity canon in a fun way and made it canon (basically in a way the databooks earlier had suggested) and blended the two personalities.

    Back in the 90s monica had good cameos showing her leadership before her powers were fully restored again in starblast. For example operation galactic storm where she served as the level headed leader approaching the Shiar before giving the Capt Marvel name up to genis because she was kinda tired of being viewed through the lens of Mar-vell, a guy she didn't even know.
    Now ofcourse, genis actually stole her new name again (Photon) in new thunderbolts, which was a dick move editorially, especially since genis was killed shortly after permanently. Then came nextwave, as critically aclaimed as it was, it certainly fucked a lot of characters, and monica is included in that where her run as the avengers leader became a joke as did her once being captain marvel. Then Ewing is the one who showed interest in the character, and has probably written her best since stern in an ongoing role (special shout out to McDuffie who wrote her one shot though)
    I think she suffers from the Cyclops, Captain America and Storm problem when not "Captain Marvel", If she is not the leader then what is she? Now Cyclops and Storm are grandfather in to the X-men so they keep getting used a leaders but watch how aimless Storm has been over the last couple of years because she does not have firm identity outside of being a leader. Now the easy answer is to use her as "the powerhouse" or "a powerhouse" on the team but role seems to go to Thor, Carol, Iron Man or Hulk. Now I have two suggestions

    A. "The Detective" basically steal with DC is doing with Jo mullein, Monica has law enforcement background and the ability to see/control energy in different ways so she is pretty much a walking csi laboratory. I can't think of Marvel character who is Marvel's great detective so she can pretty much own that niche as Marvel. Plus she wears a trench coat all the time

    B. "The fastest person at Marvel", This another niche that nobody owns at Marvel. They can play up the speedster angle and she can get the wonky dimensional and time travel stories. Flash own a niche by just being fast and nobody has every lock that down at Marvel

    I think people just don't know what to do with her as complementary character and the best comic books characters own elite niche in their universe. With Avengers I think they are plenty places for a character to own a elite niche.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I don't see why people fight so hard for Monica Rambeau to be a divertive of Male character. And Yes Captain Marvel is one few characters that 2nd character is popular than original and functional the main character. I don't care I rather Black character not be legacy character of another character. I much prefer Spectrum and her own path.

    Monica Rambeau is 1000% better shape coming from Wandavision and going into "The Marvels" as her own entity. If they successful show how good she is for the next 15 years or they are going be pushing Spectrum. You won't ever have to hear "You know that Monica isn't the original Captain Marvel".
    Yeah, I though people complain when female/PoC heroes do take the mantle from male/White ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly this.

    It doesn’t always have to be a zero-sum game. Both Carol Danvers AND Monica Rambeau could have been given prominent roles even if Monica wasn’t named Captain Marvel.

    As a young POC, it made myself and my brothers feel quite good about Monica back in the day when she was with the Avengers. Seeing the character pretty much get wiped away really did rub the wrong way. Especially when outside of Storm, Marvel simply didn’t any other prominent powerful females of color (although Storm herself did get shafted for a while in X-men but that’s a discussion for another time).
    Instead of Storm they focused on the teen versions of the O5, the Whitest iteration of the X-Men. But I digress.

    Avengers are getting more female PoC heroes now, so I think Marvel is getting the message, and maybe she'll get more of a push if her popularity increases due to the MCU

  12. #27
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    Carol makes more sense as Mar Vell's legacy...she knew Mar Vell and was inspired by Mar Vell. Monica never knew him or even heard of him. IIRC...when she introduced herself to other heroes using the name is when she learned of him.

    Now if they had not made Monica give it up her names so many times for Genis and she had been Captain Marvel all along then I would say that Carol needs to back off the name.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 05-09-2021 at 08:12 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I think she suffers from the Cyclops, Captain America and Storm problem when not "Captain Marvel", If she is not the leader then what is she? Now Cyclops and Storm are grandfather in to the X-men so they keep getting used a leaders but watch how aimless Storm has been over the last couple of years because she does not have firm identity outside of being a leader. Now the easy answer is to use her as "the powerhouse" or "a powerhouse" on the team but role seems to go to Thor, Carol, Iron Man or Hulk. Now I have two suggestions

    A. "The Detective" basically steal with DC is doing with Jo mullein, Monica has law enforcement background and the ability to see/control energy in different ways so she is pretty much a walking csi laboratory. I can't think of Marvel character who is Marvel's great detective so she can pretty much own that niche as Marvel. Plus she wears a trench coat all the time

    B. "The fastest person at Marvel", This another niche that nobody owns at Marvel. They can play up the speedster angle and she can get the wonky dimensional and time travel stories. Flash own a niche by just being fast and nobody has every lock that down at Marvel

    I think people just don't know what to do with her as complementary character and the best comic books characters own elite niche in their universe. With Avengers I think they are plenty places for a character to own a elite niche.
    part of the reason why I think she also is less around is because of how insane her powers are. Even carol got nerfed though she was binary and in limbo when bringing her back in the 1998 avengers run
    Like Marvel is generally a slow verse, you dont have crazy speedsters, quicksilver is there but he isn't that fast usually, but monica's lightspeed in her energy form by default. In DC you still have characters like superman, wonderwoman, manhunter etc who're pretty fast but in marvel speed is used very limitedly.
    In addition to this she hits like an S-Tier
    And then she can turn into any EM energy form and neutrinos and thus be impervious to damage, not to mention the versatility you get just by having access to the entire EM spectrum. She can also probably read your mind and control your body just by linking to your brain.
    You see this limitation even working in during stern's run where monica would be controlled or done away with some energy opaque bubble, so she sort of makes everyone else redundant. Being a primarily team character, she was limited in those terms.

    Jessica Jones sort of has the detective part to her... not as "THE" detective, but she's fairly prominent, and then you have jessica drew although their adventures tend to be more grounded. Ewing played up the powerhouse aspect to her

    Being somewhat of a cosmic detective or spy would probably a better one than being on earth

  14. #29
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    Couldn't they just reduce hwr power level?

  15. #30
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    part of the reason why I think she also is less around is because of how insane her powers are. Even carol got nerfed though she was binary and in limbo when bringing her back in the 1998 avengers run
    Like Marvel is generally a slow verse, you dont have crazy speedsters, quicksilver is there but he isn't that fast usually, but monica's lightspeed in her energy form by default. In DC you still have characters like superman, wonderwoman, manhunter etc who're pretty fast but in marvel speed is used very limitedly.
    In addition to this she hits like an S-Tier
    And then she can turn into any EM energy form and neutrinos and thus be impervious to damage, not to mention the versatility you get just by having access to the entire EM spectrum. She can also probably read your mind and control your body just by linking to your brain.
    You see this limitation even working in during stern's run where monica would be controlled or done away with some energy opaque bubble, so she sort of makes everyone else redundant. Being a primarily team character, she was limited in those terms.
    There is nothing wrong with Monica's power level. There is everything wrong with writers who either don't know how to write powerful characters, or are too lazy to write really powerful characters.

    For everything that Monica brings to the table, the reality is that her feats don't necessarily match what we've seen from some of Marvel's franchise characters. The versatility of her powers is also matched or surpassed by several characters. Thor by himself has a host of abilities that makes him a tough out for anyone. But did Odin stop there? Oh, no, the All-Father went and gave him Mjolnir -- because at the end of the day what these heroes are fighting for isn't a fair fight, nor do you want it to be. When you're in serious trouble, you want the deck stacked in favor of the person bringing you aid.

    Like Thor, Monica should be one of those characters whose name immediately raises the concern threshold for villains, while allaying concerns of allies and people needing their assistance. No offense to Hawkeye, Black Widow, or whomever, but when the real sh** hits the fan and the fate of the world hangs in the balance, when I call for the Avengers, don't send me some glorified athlete with more or less conventional weapons and a cool utility belt. Send me Monica mother(bleep)ing Rambeau, Sentry, Blue Marvel, Silver Surfer or someone like that. When a situation calls for an Avenger, make sure that someone worthy of the name shows up.

    If that means that writers who have a more difficult time penning powerful characters are never offered a run on Avengers, then so be it. But don't change Monica to hide their shortcomings.

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