"The Marvels" movie and how Marvel failed Monica Rambeau

[JudicatorPrime]

It'd be weird for her to not be on it.

Nevertheless, I'd like to see a version of the team sans Carol. She's not irreplaceable. I'd also have someone step in for T'Challa. Maybe both Carol and T'Challa could be reservists, but the majority of the stories would focus on the main squad. Blue Marvel, Spectrum, MAC plus 2-3 new members. Maybe toss in someone traditionally affiliated with the X-men, like Storm, Polaris, Warlock (Technarch) or Rachel Summers. And maybe a god, like the Monkey King, to help expand the team's grasp of the multiverse and reality itself.

[JudicatorPrime]

That’s good to see.

The Greg Land rendition of her (complete with lightened skin) was troubling on many levels.

Land was probably just copying Halle Berry pictures. I'd say Keisha Lance Bottoms, but I don't think her popularity on the national level had risen yet.

[Ascended]

Land was probably just copying Halle Berry pictures. I'd say Keisha Lance Bottoms, but I don't think her popularity on the national level had risen yet.

Either Berry or a porn star. I hear Land used porn stars for some of his art, though I might be wrong on that. But his Monica did have a strong Halle Berry vibe and we know he used/copied photos for some of his work (right?). That being the case, my assumption is that Monica having the straightened, "white girl" hair and lighter skin tone was less about racism and more about Land just using a well known actress as his basis. Doesn't excuse anything, but I'd rather believe that there was no intentional racism involved.

I'm much happier with how Rocafort draws Monica, though I do miss the afro. The dreads are fine but I feel like the afro is more fun.

[9th.]

I wonder how well a Marvels comic would do

[4sake Baned]

Either Berry or a porn star. I hear Land used porn stars for some of his art, though I might be wrong on that. But his Monica did have a strong Halle Berry vibe and we know he used/copied photos for some of his work (right?). That being the case, my assumption is that Monica having the straightened, "white girl" hair and lighter skin tone was less about racism and more about Land just using a well known actress as his basis. Doesn't excuse anything, but I'd rather believe that there was no intentional racism involved.

I'm much happier with how Rocafort draws Monica, though I do miss the afro. The dreads are fine but I feel like the afro is more fun.

Regardless of his intent it’s still racist regardless and something that should not have seen print, White washing and lightning of poc characters in media is a huge problem and the marvel seems to continue to fail at & learn little to nothing from..It’s a cycle they were whitewash or lighten a character skin in someway act like they did nothing wrong until people get online and complain then be the next few days or the next month or month or sometime it’s takes years or the next creative team to fix the character with them no longer being whitewash. And sometimes issuing an apology and other times not. Then it should not still happen in the first place.

[Username taken]

Either Berry or a porn star. I hear Land used porn stars for some of his art, though I might be wrong on that. But his Monica did have a strong Halle Berry vibe and we know he used/copied photos for some of his work (right?). That being the case, my assumption is that Monica having the straightened, "white girl" hair and lighter skin tone was less about racism and more about Land just using a well known actress as his basis. Doesn't excuse anything, but I'd rather believe that there was no intentional racism involved.

I'm much happier with how Rocafort draws Monica, though I do miss the afro. The dreads are fine but I feel like the afro is more fun.

You're right about Land's tracing. That's the basis of his work (which is just bizarre because he didn't start off like that all).

Halle Berry is biracial and rather light skinned, stuff that doesn't mesh with Monica.

Land would have been better off using a dark skinned black woman with an afro to trace off of.

I'm actually quite particular about the afro because Monica's race aside, it formed part of her "get up". Same with other characters like Misty Knight or Storm with her white hair, it was kind of her thing for a while.

[JudicatorPrime]

You're right about Land's tracing. That's the basis of his work (which is just bizarre because he didn't start off like that all).

Halle Berry is biracial and rather light skinned, stuff that doesn't mesh with Monica.

Land would have been better off using a dark skinned black woman with an afro to trace off of.

I'm actually quite particular about the afro because Monica's race aside, it formed part of her "get up". Same with other characters like Misty Knight or Storm with her white hair, it was kind of her thing for a while.

These discussions come up quite a bit. I think what most people found objectionable about Land's rendering of Monica wasn't just the lighter complexion (which isn't really Land's fault, since he's not the colorist), but also her facial features and physique. Monica went from "red beans and rice didn't miss her" to "skinny with t*ts" in the span of a couple of issues. Given that Pam Grier was one of the reported inspirations for Monica, Land probably should have done himself a favor and simply pulled up all of Ms. Grier's images from her youth. But again, I suspect that he simply traced the image of a "White" model for most of his artwork, including the drawings of Monica.

As for Monica's hair, I don't know many sistas who keep the same hairstyle for very long. Change is a must. It's one of the many things that I love about them. And if it's not the hairstyle, sit back and marvel at the beautiful hair wraps and head scarves. It's all good.

When Ewing suggested that Monica was always a being of pure electromagnetic energy, he gave her the ability to change her appearance in the blink of an eye. I want them to refresh that aspect of her power and build on it. I probably would have installed an alias feature, to wit, in order to protect her true identity, Monica Rambeau and Captain Marvel/Photon/Spectrum look like two totally different Black women. If you were to place them side by side, you wouldn't know that they are the same woman. I know there are some artists out there who have a difficult time drawing Black women. Well, Monica and Spectrum would give them twice as much practice learning how to do just that.

[ed2962]

Either Berry or a porn star. I hear Land used porn stars for some of his art, though I might be wrong on that. But his Monica did have a strong Halle Berry vibe and we know he used/copied photos for some of his work (right?). That being the case, my assumption is that Monica having the straightened, "white girl" hair and lighter skin tone was less about racism and more about Land just using a well known actress as his basis. Doesn't excuse anything, but I'd rather believe that there was no intentional racism involved.

I'm much happier with how Rocafort draws Monica, though I do miss the afro. The dreads are fine but I feel like the afro is more fun.

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't put Hally Berry style Monica on the same level as white washed Sunspot ( a character who on panel was referred to as black, showing up looking like a white Latino). That look was quite popular among real life black women for a few years back. Although I believe it was a way bigger mistake for DC to use that style for revamped Nu52 Amanda Waller than it was for Marvel to use it for Monica.

Having said all that, Monica's been wearing braids or dreadlocks for like 25-ish years. She was still using the Capt Marvel name when she changed her hair. I'd dare say it's closer to being her signature look at this point than her Pam Grier afro.

[Username taken]

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't put Hally Berry style Monica on the same level as white washed Sunspot ( a character who on panel was referred to as black, showing up looking like a white Latino). That look was quite popular among real life black women for a few years back. Although I believe it was a way bigger mistake for DC to use that style for revamped Nu52 Amanda Waller than it was for Marvel to use it for Monica.

Having said all that, Monica's been wearing braids or dreadlocks for like 25-ish years. She was still using the Capt Marvel name when she changed her hair. I'd dare say it's closer to being her signature look at this point than her Pam Grier afro.

It's just not about the hair style, that's just one part of a problematic set of changes.

The lighter coloring of Monica complete with whiter features and straightened out hair sends out a very, very negative signal about black female beauty. And it's not just restricted to Monica, a lot of darker skinned characters were "whitened" up for a while. As you right mentioned, Sunspot was practically changed from a dark skinned Afro-Brazilian to a White-Brazilian (this sh!t was even brought into the movie).

True, Monica has changed her hair style for a long while now but outside of a few limited and short lived series, she's been MIA for the vast majority of the last 25-30 years or so. The Afro that Monica wore could easily be updated to look more like curls that Teyonah Parris wore in Wandavision. That's just another way the MCU has been much more forward thinking than the comics.

[CosmiComic]

Idk if I'd say the MCU is more forward thinking than the comics. I agree with your point though

[JudicatorPrime]

Idk if I'd say the MCU is more forward thinking than the comics.

Exactly. The novelty of the MCU will blind many.

[CosmiComic]

Exactly. The novelty of the MCU will blind many.

It's not so much the novelty. I think the MCU is trying now to make more efforts for diversity. But being much older, the comics are already ahead in some ways concerning diversity. That doesn't mean the MCU isn't doing somethings better, as Username Taken said. I just wouldn't say it's doing near as good as it could

[JudicatorPrime]

The Afro that Monica wore could easily be updated to look more like curls that Teyonah Parris wore in Wandavision. That's just another way the MCU has been much more forward thinking than the comics.

I think showing Monica with various hairstyles is cool. For the record, though, I'm definitely not knocking the 'fro, I just think how artists rendered Monica's hair lost the volume and curly texture that Pam Grier actually had. I'd be curious to see what today's Marvel artist (well, everyone except Land) would come up with if they were asked to draw Monica in Ms. Grier's image.

[Ascended]

I think the MCU is making great strides right now to correct a problem they shouldn't have had in the first place.

Ike Perlmutter was a huge barrier to proper representation in the MCU but he's been gone a while and "Ike's fault!" only gets you so far, yknow?

I do give Marvel props for the efforts we're now seeing, don't get me wrong, but why are we seeing this push only now, rather than in 2018-2019 when T'Challa and Carol both hit? Given how long these films are planned in advance there very well might be a legit logistical reason it took so long, but if that's the case I don't know about it.

Regardless of his intent it’s still racist regardless

Not saying it isn't. It's total BS no matter the reason why. But I'd still rather think it happened because people were idiots and didn't consider it, rather than because they're racist sh*t bags who did it on purpose.

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't put Hally Berry style Monica on the same level as white washed Sunspot ( a character who on panel was referred to as black, showing up looking like a white Latino). That look was quite popular among real life black women for a few years back.

I still see it on occasion.

I don't think the hair was a problem in and of itself. In a vacuum it was, as you say, a popular real world look. But when taking into account everything else about black representation in comics and Land's work in particular (the facial features, etc)....it's perpetuating a lot of really bad habits.

[JudicatorPrime]

It looks like Teyona is rocking braids now. Can't wait to see which style she goes with in Marvels.