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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Killing off John was actually a novel idea. The rest of the movie just followed a lot of the same tropes established by the previous movies and wasted the potential of the opening act. It was decently entertaining and I liked the new evil Terminator's abilities. The other new characters were a bit "meh" though.
    In the context of the movie and the overall plot, killing John was competely pointless because they simply replaced him with that young lady (I cant remember her name). She was basically the savior figure that John already was. Coupled with the female cyborg coming back to protect her and the movie basically became a gender swapped T2.

    That's not to say that Dark Fate is a terrible movie...it just didn't add anything new to the franchise and was a retread of what had come before.

    For all the sh!t that Salvation and Genisys got, those movies were at least trying to do something new. Salvation especially was the way to go because there is only some many times you can send a soldier/cyborg back to protect someone from another cyborg.
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  2. #227
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    I didn't think Dark Fate was bad. I actually liked it well enough. My point was less that it was bad and more that it flopped because people had no interest in further installments after the last few ones were bad or underperformed. It was an issue that went back way further back than the film itself, so it's not fair to argue it failed because the John Connor stand-in was a Mexican girl.

  3. #228
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Terminator Dark Fate Budget $185–196 million Gross 261 million
    Terminator Geniysis Budget 155 million Gross 432 million
    Terminator Salvation Budget 200 million Gross 365 million
    T3 rise of the machine Budget 187 million Gross 433 million
    T2 Budget: 94–102 million Gross: 515 million
    Terminator Budget:6 million Gross: 78 million

    So some perspective on the Terminator franchise. What do the numbers tell you? Some people will say that Terminator has not made a good movie in a while the actual numbers imo tell you the audience for terminator was never that big. T2 just made great numbers for an R-rated property and it is the anomaly in the franchise. Now what keeps them making movies is that none of the movies since T2 has felt like audience or critical success so the potential is there to make more money but imo the films are doing nearly as well they should the audience has been the about the same for each movie.

    I am on board Dark Fate wasn't a bad movie train but there is enough of a sample size to tell us that audience isn't that big for the Terminator franchise. That said stomping on your audience by killing one of the biggest characters in the franchise isn't a good idea. My thoughts is Terminator is probably best now as a premium TV/streaming franchise, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles was actually the right move but just a victim of FoX who was notorious for killing stuff to early see Firefly or Terra Nova.They need to Ssop trying to put it on the big screen put it on the small screen again.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 05-14-2021 at 02:22 AM.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    They flopped because the storylines were repeated too mich
    That yeah.
    I mean Dark Fate is pretty much your "standard" Terminator movie.
    You have a Terminator and someone who runs from him.

    You cant do that too many times without it being rather boring, no matter how much action etc you add.
    It is telling the same story as the first one, and that only works so many times.

    On that i thought Genisys was one of the more unique movies that i personally really like.

    I thought after Genisys that you could do a cool "final" movie that gets both this new and the past timeline together for one final big movie.
    But killing off John from the Original timeline, ruined that idea.

  5. #230
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone is afraid or angered by a star wars female leading character, Rey was just not a good one. poor thought characters like Rey hurt honest diversity.

  6. #231
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    I don't want to drag us down into another bitter sequel-trilogy post-mortem, but Rey started out fine, imo, just the balance between lead characters got worse and worse. We all have our different opinions on precisely why that was, and the only thing we can agree on is that something did go wrong with the trilogy, and that the character of Finn got shafted at some point. Maybe we should leave it there?

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    I don't want to drag us down into another bitter sequel-trilogy post-mortem, but Rey started out fine, imo, just the balance between lead characters got worse and worse. We all have our different opinions on precisely why that was, and the only thing we can agree on is that something did go wrong with the trilogy, and that the character of Finn got shafted at some point. Maybe we should leave it there?
    Exactly.

    Rey doesn't really come into this discussion because we didn't even know that she was the lead before The Force Awakens came out. She wasn't used to sell the movie.

    Her being the protagonist was not the problem, that was in line with Lucas' plan. The character that Disney failed with the new trilogy regarding diversity was FINN.

    Disney put him front and center of the marketing but he ultimately amounted to nothing. That's the very definition of commodification of minorities.

    It's not a surprise that Boyega is pretty much done with Disney.
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  8. #233
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I didn't like everything Rey did. But I didn't think she was a Mary sue. She didn't magically win everything. She did rush through a lot of power ups. But Anakin did that too. And her pseudo-romance with Kylo is far more problematic

    And plenty of people complained about Furiosa, Croft and Cara Dune. I remember it all when those characters first came out. Frankly I don't even know what Mary sue means
    The problem with Rey is that she didn't earn anything. She doesn't get formally trained into the third movie, her character doesn't grow, nothing she has is own her. Her lightsaber, her ship, the droid and even her name at the end are not things she can call her own. She is a absolute failure as a lead character.

    If there were complains about those characters it obviously wasn't big enough to cause division.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    In the context of the movie and the overall plot, killing John was competely pointless because they simply replaced him with that young lady (I cant remember her name). She was basically the savior figure that John already was. Coupled with the female cyborg coming back to protect her and the movie basically became a gender swapped T2.

    That's not to say that Dark Fate is a terrible movie...it just didn't add anything new to the franchise and was a retread of what had come before.

    For all the sh!t that Salvation and Genisys got, those movies were at least trying to do something new. Salvation especially was the way to go because there is only some many times you can send a soldier/cyborg back to protect someone from another cyborg.
    Yeah, that was what I was trying to say. They wasted killing off John only to redo all the stuff from the previous movies but with different characters.

    Salvation might've worked had John Connor actually been more interesting, and maybe someone else other than Sam Worthington play the other guy

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkViKing View Post
    That yeah.
    I mean Dark Fate is pretty much your "standard" Terminator movie.
    You have a Terminator and someone who runs from him.

    You cant do that too many times without it being rather boring, no matter how much action etc you add.
    It is telling the same story as the first one, and that only works so many times.

    On that i thought Genisys was one of the more unique movies that i personally really like.

    I thought after Genisys that you could do a cool "final" movie that gets both this new and the past timeline together for one final big movie.
    But killing off John from the Original timeline, ruined that idea.
    Maybe they should've taken a different route and done more of an exploration into how robots could change society, for better or worse

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I don't think anyone is afraid or angered by a star wars female leading character, Rey was just not a good one. poor thought characters like Rey hurt honest diversity.
    You know that's not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The problem with Rey is that she didn't earn anything. She doesn't get formally trained into the third movie, her character doesn't grow, nothing she has is own her. Her lightsaber, her ship, the droid and even her name at the end are not things she can call her own. She is a absolute failure as a lead character.

    If there were complains about those characters it obviously wasn't big enough to cause division.
    What exactly is earning? I don't entirely disagree, but how does someone earn anything here?

  10. #235
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    Rey didnít ďearnĒ stuff in that she largely ends up simply accumulating familiar power, weapons, ships, names and etc., without having any story build-up to them.

    But I still say thatís more the fault of TLJ not giving a ratís ass about her and deliberately undercutting her for subversionsís sake so it could,focus more on Kylo, just as it deliberately demoted Finn. Rey has one movie where sheís quiet functional and capable as a protagonist (TFA), one movie that screws her over and subtracted what strengths she did have (TLJ), and one film trying to fix her, but not allowed to reject the cancerous relationship with Kylo and stuck trying to squeeze in two films worth of storytelling (TROS).

    Itsí a fairly unique problem, because honestly, most continuous stories donít have a second entry sabotage the first one so thoroughly.

    Itíd be like if Captain Marvel 2 opened and decided to have Carol start falling for Ronan the Accuser, dropped her characterization as a tough soldier in favor of a naive Ingenue, and had the final confrontation happen between a variation of the male Mar-Vell and Ronan after having Ronan tell a tears-eyed Carol she has no place in this story.
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  11. #236
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    Terminator 2 was pretty much a retread on the first one. Hold them up together and they mirror each other. Which isn't bad per se, I like Judgement Day fine. But it was a hit because it had a great marketing campaign with kick ass special effects. The fact it had "You Could Be Mine" by Guns N Roses (the biggest band in the world at the time) with that tie-ins music clip playing non-stop on MTV also did wonders.

    I didn't think Dark Fate was bad. But people deemed it as such as soon as they learned John Connor was killed. It had all the things a Terminator film should have. Viewer fatigue did play a part as well because we were told that Genesys rendered Salvation non-canon. Then Dark Fate rendered 3 - 5 non-canon.

    Out of everything, I do feel TSCC was the logical extension of the franchise. Dark Fate just had the unfortunate position of trying to say something new when everything else was done.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Terminator 2 was pretty much a retread on the first one. Hold them up together and they mirror each other. Which isn't bad per se, I like Judgement Day fine. But it was a hit because it had a great marketing campaign with kick ass special effects. The fact it had "You Could Be Mine" by Guns N Roses (the biggest band in the world at the time) with that tie-ins music clip playing non-stop on MTV also did wonders.

    I didn't think Dark Fate was bad. But people deemed it as such as soon as they learned John Connor was killed. It had all the things a Terminator film should have. Viewer fatigue did play a part as well because we were told that Genesys rendered Salvation non-canon. Then Dark Fate rendered 3 - 5 non-canon.

    Out of everything, I do feel TSCC was the logical extension of the franchise. Dark Fate just had the unfortunate position of trying to say something new when everything else was done.
    Honestly, I thought Genisys rendered all the movies except T1 non-cannon.
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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Rey didn’t “earn” stuff in that she largely ends up simply accumulating familiar power, weapons, ships, names and etc., without having any story build-up to them.

    But I still say that’s more the fault of TLJ not giving a rat’s ass about her and deliberately undercutting her for subversions’s sake so it could,focus more on Kylo, just as it deliberately demoted Finn. Rey has one movie where she’s quiet functional and capable as a protagonist (TFA), one movie that screws her over and subtracted what strengths she did have (TLJ), and one film trying to fix her, but not allowed to reject the cancerous relationship with Kylo and stuck trying to squeeze in two films worth of storytelling (TROS).

    Its’ a fairly unique problem, because honestly, most continuous stories don’t have a second entry sabotage the first one so thoroughly.

    It’d be like if Captain Marvel 2 opened and decided to have Carol start falling for Ronan the Accuser, dropped her characterization as a tough soldier in favor of a naive Ingenue, and had the final confrontation happen between a variation of the male Mar-Vell and Ronan after having Ronan tell a tears-eyed Carol she has no place in this story.
    I see what you mean. Personally, I thought her character progression was rushed and inconsistent. She did get a bunch of stuff I didn't really think she needed, like the Falcon or the Skywalker name. I just never thought of it as something to "earn." Plus, she basically achieved nothing in TLJ except at the very end, and that was partially due to Luke

  14. #239
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Rey didnít ďearnĒ stuff in that she largely ends up simply accumulating familiar power, weapons, ships, names and etc., without having any story build-up to them.

    But I still say thatís more the fault of TLJ not giving a ratís ass about her and deliberately undercutting her for subversionsís sake so it could,focus more on Kylo, just as it deliberately demoted Finn. Rey has one movie where sheís quiet functional and capable as a protagonist (TFA), one movie that screws her over and subtracted what strengths she did have (TLJ), and one film trying to fix her, but not allowed to reject the cancerous relationship with Kylo and stuck trying to squeeze in two films worth of storytelling (TROS).

    Itsí a fairly unique problem, because honestly, most continuous stories donít have a second entry sabotage the first one so thoroughly.

    Itíd be like if Captain Marvel 2 opened and decided to have Carol start falling for Ronan the Accuser, dropped her characterization as a tough soldier in favor of a naive Ingenue, and had the final confrontation happen between a variation of the male Mar-Vell and Ronan after having Ronan tell a tears-eyed Carol she has no place in this story.
    You keep stating that like it's fact, but I really don't think it is. Rey came out best of all the characters in TLJ. The film sets her up as THE hero, and attempts to make Kylo Ren look like a credible villain. it squanders almost everyone else, though I think it at least gives Luke a decent send-off. It wasn't Rey's fan-base who complained about TLJ.

    Now RoS did attempt to rebalance everything and make everyone happy, but it was an impossible task doomed to failure (though I myself quite enjoyed the film first time around).

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    You keep stating that like it's fact, but I really don't think it is. Rey came out best of all the characters in TLJ. The film sets her up as THE hero, and attempts to make Kylo Ren look like a credible villain. it squanders almost everyone else, though I think it at least gives Luke a decent send-off. It wasn't Rey's fan-base who complained about TLJ.

    Now RoS did attempt to rebalance everything and make everyone happy, but it was an impossible task doomed to failure (though I myself quite enjoyed the film first time around).
    Rey didn't look great at all in TLJ. Her whole plan to get Kylo to convert failed, and even though she brought Luke out of hiding in the end, he never actually left, and all she did was save a small group of Resistance fighters. And we still got little actual characterization and introspection with her. RoS didn't do her any favors though

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