Is Hollywood Using Diversity To Justify Potentially Doomed Franchises?

[Username taken]

Luke learned how to fly from using his "Sky Hopper", in the Star Wars universe Sky Hoppers and X-Wings have similar dashboards. That's why he was so confident of being able to fly the Millineum Falcon when he first met Han Solo. It was kind of the same with Anakin doing the "drag racing" in Tatooine, although Anakin couldn't fly a ship properly and pretty much lucked his way out.

Luke could make the shot that took out the Death Star because he was "shooting womp rats" in Tatooine. Yes, the Force helped Luke but he had experience making tough shots already. Luke didn't just pull out powers like the way Rey did, there was background to all the stuff he did. Anakin became a Jedi Master in between Episode 2 and 3 and this was detailed in the first Clone Wars animated series which was cannonical because the series led directly into Episode 3. The Clone Wars tv series was pretty much compulsory watching because some of the events referred to in Episode 3 took place during the series.

George Lucas actually paid attention to a lot of stuff in his movies and was more delibrate with his storytelling than we got in the sequel trilogy. The sequel trilogy treated the force like its a mutant ability which it is NOT. You need to train very hard to able use the force efficiently, just because you might have a high midichlorian count doesn't mean you can just pull out "deux ex machina" abilities. I mean, Rey wrecked Kylo the first time they met..injured or not, a non force user shouldn't be able to do that. It didn't work like that before the sequel trilogy and is part of the reason that Rey got a lot of criticism, she basically "Brock Lesnar'd" her way through the series.

[godisawesome]

Luke learned how to fly from using his "Sky Hopper", in the Star Wars universe Sky Hoppers and X-Wings have similar dashboards. That's why he was so confident of being able to fly the Millineum Falcon when he first met Han Solo. It was kind of the same with Anakin doing the "drag racing" in Tatooine, although Anakin couldn't fly a ship properly and pretty much lucked his way out.

Luke could make the shot that took out the Death Star because he was "shooting womp rats" in Tatooine. Yes, the Force helped Luke but he had experience making tough shots already. Luke didn't just pull out powers like the way Rey did, there was background to all the stuff he did. Anakin became a Jedi Master in between Episode 2 and 3 and this was detailed in the first Clone Wars animated series which was cannonical because the series led directly into Episode 3. The Clone Wars tv series was pretty much compulsory watching because some of the events referred to in Episode 3 took place during the series.

George Lucas actually paid attention to a lot of stuff in his movies and was more delibrate with his storytelling than we got in the sequel trilogy. The sequel trilogy treated the force like its a mutant ability which it is NOT. You need to train very hard to able use the force efficiently, just because you might have a high midichlorian count doesn't mean you can just pull out "deux ex machina" abilities. I mean, Rey wrecked Kylo the first time they met..injured or not, a non force user shouldn't be able to do that. It didn't work like that before the sequel trilogy and is part of the reason that Rey got a lot of criticism, she basically "Brock Lesnar'd" her way through the series.

While I still personally disagree that Rey’s win over Kylo in TFA should be taken as a negative, at least in part because I want Finn to get some credit for that victory and I *do* think it has great “wrestling psychology” to explain the win...

...I would also argue that someone “Brock Lesnar’ing” their way through an adventure story can still be awesome if that’s your main goal to get the character over and as a tool for the conflict. All Star Superman features a Superman who can do anything, but is still fun. Captain Marvel shows Carol Danvers capable of manhandling the entire Kree Fleet as a warm-up. The Avatar State from Avatar the Last Airbender was always a trump card Aang had even back in Season One (though they “cheated” and got to have their cake and eat it too in three ways in that series.)

Rey having too much power can be *a* problem.

But if someone doesn’t think her bigger problem is being prostituted to try and get Kylo Ren over, I tend to doubt their judgement.

It's very much a reverse Roman Reigns vs Brock Lesnar situation to me - there’s a blatant hope that the audience will like one character (Roman Reigns, Kylo Ren) more than another, so the opponent is used to try and sell that (Brock Lesnar, Rey).

If they had actual balls, they would have let Rey be tempted to the dark side to kill Kylo back in TLJ, instead of trying to make her his accessory. Power level advantage or no, that would have been the more natural and likeable story compared to pretending Kylo was sympathetic or complex (he really wasn’t.)

[CosmiComic]

How does Luke fly an X-Wing though? And how does Anakin just destroy a Trade Federation control station?

[godisawesome]

How does Luke fly an X-Wing though? And how does Anakin just destroy a Trade Federation control station?

I believe the foreshadowing done in both films is: Luke early on asserting he can pilot repeatedly (but the story not making it clear that it would translate directly to military craft) and that Anakin’s reflexes and experience as a pod-racer (but again, not making it explicit that translated directly to military craft.)

Rey’s piloting and tech skills never bothered me at all; I mostly just took them for granted as foreshadowing that she *should* have been a Skywalker in the next film.

I *do* find myself often having to work at defending her usage of the Force and defeating Kylo in the climax.... but I also find both more intelligently treated there than in TLJ, which may be more the result of Kasdan having a modicum of influence on Rey over Abrams, or just that Johnson genuinely just wanted Rey sped through everything so he could focus more on Kylo and Luke.

[green_garnish]

How does Luke fly an X-Wing though? And how does Anakin just destroy a Trade Federation control station?

How does Hulk fly a quinjet? How does Cap know how to throw a shield with such accuracy? How does Daredevil hear a heartbeat, but not hear the pacemaker keeping it beating at such a steady rate?

These are superheroes, and if we're not prepared to accept certain things at face value, we should find another genre to entertain ourselves with.

[CosmiComic]

How does Hulk fly a quinjet? How does Cap know how to throw a shield with such accuracy? How does Daredevil hear a heartbeat, but not hear the pacemaker keeping it beating at such a steady rate?

These are superheroes, and if we're not prepared to accept certain things at face value, we should find another genre to entertain ourselves with.

I was responding to the claim of Rey not training enough, and was pointing out how Luke didn't train either in everything

[CosmiComic]

I believe the foreshadowing done in both films is: Luke early on asserting he can pilot repeatedly (but the story not making it clear that it would translate directly to military craft) and that Anakin’s reflexes and experience as a pod-racer (but again, not making it explicit that translated directly to military craft.)

Rey’s piloting and tech skills never bothered me at all; I mostly just took them for granted as foreshadowing that she *should* have been a Skywalker in the next film.

I *do* find myself often having to work at defending her usage of the Force and defeating Kylo in the climax.... but I also find both more intelligently treated there than in TLJ, which may be more the result of Kasdan having a modicum of influence on Rey over Abrams, or just that Johnson genuinely just wanted Rey sped through everything so he could focus more on Kylo and Luke.

Didn't the Starkiller base breaking apart end the fight in TFA?

[Scott Taylor]

This conversation is making me wish that Rey had not been so good at using a light saber, piloting or using tech. After all, Palpatine sucks at all of those things. Or, at least, hardly uses them. His whole onscreen career has been all about the intrigue, deception and using force lightning.

Oh well, another reason to be disappointed with the sequel trilogy.

[CosmiComic]

This conversation is making me wish that Rey had not been so good at using a light saber, piloting or using tech. After all, Palpatine sucks at all of those things. Or, at least, hardly uses them. His whole onscreen career has been all about the intrigue, deception and using force lightning.

Oh well, another reason to be disappointed with the sequel trilogy.

Why didn't he stop shooting lightning at Rey when it was killing him?

[Scott Taylor]

Why didn't he stop shooting lightning at Rey when it was killing him?

I figure he was so busy smashing the attack button in the first few seconds that a zillion button presses were saved in his controller's memory buffer.

[titanfan]

This conversation is making me wish that Rey had not been so good at using a light saber, piloting or using tech. After all, Palpatine sucks at all of those things. Or, at least, hardly uses them. His whole onscreen career has been all about the intrigue, deception and using force lightning.

Oh well, another reason to be disappointed with the sequel trilogy.

If only they planned ahead and had a roadmap for each of the characters, etc.

A heroic, but super cunning force user would be very cool.

[CosmiComic]

I figure he was so busy smashing the attack button in the first few seconds that a zillion button presses were saved in his controller's memory buffer.

Haha. About as satisfying an explanation as we'll probably get

[godisawesome]

How does Hulk fly a quinjet? How does Cap know how to throw a shield with such accuracy? How does Daredevil hear a heartbeat, but not hear the pacemaker keeping it beating at such a steady rate?

These are superheroes, and if we're not prepared to accept certain things at face value, we should find another genre to entertain ourselves with.

Agreed. The abilities and powers of the heroes, whether they’re superheroes or space opera heroes, doesn’t really matter that much - because what *does* matter is how skillfully the writer can make the conflict intriguing and worth the audience’s time. Rey wasn’t really any different from Luke or Anakin in their first movies, except she got a lightsaber fight that she won with help... and I’d argue that’s easily the best “duel” in the ST, even if the Praetorian Guard fight is stunning in spectacle, because the TFA duel has some intelligence and characterization going on. It’s about how you handle the storytelling, and that comes down to execution.

For another same-franchise comparison, there’s Sabine Wren from Rebels.

When we meet her, she’s already a proficient pilot, weapons designer, gunfighter, spy, and avant-garde explosive graffiti artist. She outdraws and helps capture the leader of the Mandalorian Protectors, and only needs one episode’s worth of lightsaber training to definitively defeat Gar Saxon in a lightsaber duel. And she’s a popular character people are salvaging at seeing in The Mandalorian or Ahsoka. But that all comes down to execution and storytelling; even her one “training” episode is more about telling a strong character story than about her learning to use the saber.

Of course, you don’t even need cool skills or powers if you have a skilled writer. Mayfeld in The Mandalorian is basically a glorified stormtrooper, but one tense-as-hell conversation over tea and biscuits can make his second episode awesome as hell.

It’s one of the reasons I tend to blame or praise writers fro how characters are received; character concept has nothing to do with it, really. If you have a good story to tell, you can make anyone cool, no matter what their powers are. If you have a sucky-ass story to tell, it doesn’t matter how good a character you’re given, it’s still going to suck.

[Username taken]

Why didn't he stop shooting lightning at Rey when it was killing him?

To be fair (and as you can tell, I’m going deep into my Star Wars freak knowledge) force lightning can be quite dangerous even to those wielding it. The Emperor has a history of over relying on it.

That’s why in Episode 3, even when Yoda successfully blocked the force lighting with his saber The Emperor couldn’t stop and he got blown off the platform he and Yoda were fighting on. Mace Windu reflected back Palpatines lighting and disfigured him before that.

I guess that could be the reason he vaporized himself when he was fighting Rey and in a broken and damaged body.

But yeah, that scene was all kind of stupid.

[WebLurker]

Yeah, there were blatantly people who hated Finn, Rose, and others for being non-white, and Rey is clearly dealing with some sexism as well.

Yeah, while Kelly Marie Tran's troubles was somewhat more publicized, it was pretty much there from the beginning. I mean, back in the day there were racists justifying objecting to John Boyega being in the movie under the pretext that black stormtroopers didn't exist before, which was pretty bad logic considering that the clone troopers (literally the G1 stormtroopers) had been depicted as non-white characters in the prequels (it's embarrassing how so few people didn't push back on that). And there was, of course, the "Rey is a Mary Sue" crap we've had to deal with ever since we learned that she was the new Jedi character and the whole double standard compared to the male Jedi leads in the previous films (I find it extremely funny how much of the "Mary Sue" arguments had to ignore parts of the film and facts previously established in the franchise).

There *is* an interesting case of “factionalism” on both ends of the ST, though, in regards to representation and the backlash against it; TLJ especially pits progressives against progressives in a lot of ways, since it’s a film that preaches one thing and practices another.

I really don't like how toxic all that got. I mean, worse case scenario, it was a bad movie in the franchise; we've been there and done that before, and Star Wars bounced back from it. While the prequel hate maybe should've been a clue that certain people would take it personally if they didn't like any of the new movies, it did make discussing it really hard, even after you separated the bigots and all that. (I personally thought it was really good and what the franchise needed, but that's me.)

Remember one of the movie vicious Star Wars haters on YouTube (of the "anti-SJW and anti-woke" variety of bigots) did quite the 180 after TLJ; they'd apparently loved TFA (to the extent of claiming that it proved that George Lucas had destroyed the franchise), but after that movie, it was all about how Disney didn't know what they were doing and had destroyed the original movies. In retrospect, I think that YouTuber was always more than a little unhinged, but it was still amazing to watch from the sidelines.