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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    I think it's the exact opposite of this topic's question. Hollywood uses inclusion/diversity for the reason something flops. They take away the wrong message again and again.
    Oh definitely. Yet when diversity succeeds the corporate suits don't gwt the message

  2. #47
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk. I feel like DC could do a better job. And honestly I didn't think Joker was that great. It was ok, but doing Joker without Batman doesn't really work for me. It still sends the whole "villain is more important than hero" message Batman movies always struggle with.

    DC's problem IMO is they relied too much on the Snyderverse to set up connections. The post-Snyderverse DCEU seems to be doing better. But anyway, I feel like I'm derailing the conversation again.
    I think they "could" do a better job, but "will" they do a better job? I don't think so. And fair enough on Joker, but I liked it a lot better than anything to come out of the DCEU to date.

    But yeah, back on topic - I don't trust WB to do diversity in a satisfactory and compelling way, especially not in their superhero films.

  3. #48
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    Honestly I think alot of is "We have this IP that made us money in the past, we have to reboot it to try and make money!"

    "Ok, but this time it needs to be totally different than before!

    What's the biggest thing you change? The protagonist. *But* the problem is that so many protagonists were white males in the past--when you want to change them up you often end up with someone of a different race or gender by default.

    Really, someone needs to talk Hollywood to stop trying to make money off of doomed franchises. But that's easier said that done.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Apologies to all Hal Jordan fans, but John Stewart was/is the GL they should be trying to make into a movie star. It's been what? 15 years since Justice League Unlimited ended? And it's still what people want to think of when they think of good DC? And 15 years is just the right amount of time for nostalgia to kick in and drive a franchise revival into overdrive.
    I'd vote Jessica Cruz over John Stewart, but personal preferences and all that (and certainly not relevant if the question is how to get black characters on the big screen). Also, have to say for that as much as I'm told that John Stewart is still a big deal from the cartoons, all evidence I've seen is that he's a cult character who can't escape Hal Jordan's shadow (although, to be fair, no Green Lantern escapes Hal's shadow; I'm dreading when Jessica's time in the spotlight is over and she joins John, Kyle, and the other temporary breakout stars as glorified extras while Hal returns as the "one true" Green Lantern). Am I looking in the wrong places or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Cyborg was their only black DCEU hero, and they had to ruin that relationship with Fisher. It just feels like such a waste...
    Assuming they don't recast, who else besides John Stewart could they give the limelight?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  5. #50
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It is troubling. They didn't even try to bring John Stewart to thr big screen yet. And non-Black PoC heroes haven't even gotten as far as Cyborg has!
    Funny thing is, Snyder did want to at least give John Stewart a cameo at the end of his Justice League, and it was the one thing that Warner Brothers absolutely refused to let him do, because.... they got that Green Lantern tv show coming, so... yeah.

    They can pull strings to have Ezra Miller appear on the CW's Flash, but they won't allow a 30 second cameo in a movie that isn't cannon and that they are going to ignore anyway, and while they are already leaning heavily into a multiverse, which they could also use to explain it away.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    If black Superman fails because of the controversy of race bending an icon, WB could use that as an excuse to say "We'll we tried, guess black characters only sell when the MCU does it!" and not adapt POC characters that wouldn't have that built in controversy and backlash. That's a legit fear to have.
    And the rumor is that they want Michael B. Jordan for the role. Which, while I like him as an actor, you'd think he'd think twice about taking it after the shitstorm that was Fantastic Four.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    Funny thing is, Snyder did want to at least give John Stewart a cameo at the end of his Justice League, and it was the one thing that Warner Brothers absolutely refused to let him do, because.... they got that Green Lantern tv show coming, so... yeah.

    They can pull strings to have Ezra Miller appear on the CW's Flash, but they won't allow a 30 second cameo in a movie that isn't cannon and that they are going to ignore anyway, and while they are already leaning heavily into a multiverse, which they could also use to explain it away.

    .
    You think it is smart idea for company to be second guess by themselves? What if the fans don't like who is casted John Stewart? All you would be hearing is they should have casted John Stewart from Zac Synder project. You might think it does not matter but some people are unable to see a Erza Miller as Flash because of TV Show. A small cameo could do that do Green Lantern so why not have people only associate one person with your character.

  7. #52
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    I think what Scott Mendelson is referring to is the “commodification” of diversity.

    It’s a serious discussion that’s happening amongst female and minority creators. There is something about simply swapping the race and/or gender of characters to simply generate “buzz” when there’s not really much to be said with characters.

    Now, I’m not going to include Superman here because it’s not exactly a broken franchise (although I will say that Superman’s popularity isn’t what it once was). In addition, WB hiring Ta-Nehisi Coates means that movie is going to have something very profound to say. There might be a race bent character (or characters here) but the movie isn’t just going to have black characters for the sake of it.

    But I will definitely include the Pirates reboot in the commodification category because that just seems like Disney has run out of ideas on what to do with that franchise. The Pirates franchise is completely broken and the lead and anchor (pun fully intended) Johnny Depp has run into a ton of personal issues in the last few years. They simply want the buzz and possible controversy around an all female cast to generate interest in the movie without the movie actually having meaningful feminist message. Same with GB 2016 and Terminator Dark Fate.

    Even more insidiously, these studios will turn hide behind these failures to say ‘we tried making minority or female led movies but they didn’t work”. They’ll then use this as justification to avoid making POC and female led movies subsequently. It’s all very shady and very problematic from a minority perspective.
    Black Lives Matter.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Everyone always learns the wrong lessons. DC sees the success of Black Panther so they look at all their black characters and....decide to race bend Superman?
    Instead of me repeating myself with black panther, let me just quote the issues of what i said already on another thread.
    With black panther, the success has not inspired many studios to try and copy of it. Big studios are still not going to spend 200m on all black cast led movie, because studios don't have faith in POC movies. Sony studios once said in secret that Denzel Washington been black although very talented, he still cannot sell a movie like they want and right now I can make the case that Denzel is the most iconic black actor of his generation.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...t-9932507.html
    Sony leak: Denzel Washington should not star in lead roles overseas because the world is 'racist'

    Black panther's impact feels like a one off now because only Disney and Marvel Studios had the money, media power, marketing hype and fanbase to pull the success off.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...cars-2019-hype


    Sadly , I dont think for a second the quest for Black superman came for getting inspired by Black Panther. I feel DC just want it because they have been instructed by the ''establishment'' to do so.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-09-2021 at 12:48 AM.

  9. #54
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    Really, someone needs to talk Hollywood to stop trying to make money off of doomed franchises. But that's easier said that done.
    Superman's only a doomed franchise if you have incompetent people in charge. Which sadly WB does...

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I'd vote Jessica Cruz over John Stewart, but personal preferences and all that (and certainly not relevant if the question is how to get black characters on the big screen). Also, have to say for that as much as I'm told that John Stewart is still a big deal from the cartoons, all evidence I've seen is that he's a cult character who can't escape Hal Jordan's shadow (although, to be fair, no Green Lantern escapes Hal's shadow; I'm dreading when Jessica's time in the spotlight is over and she joins John, Kyle, and the other temporary breakout stars as glorified extras while Hal returns as the "one true" Green Lantern). Am I looking in the wrong places or something?
    I think you're looking in the wrong place, yes - you're looking in the comics, which is the only place where John is in Hal's shadow (Hal is the character over John in the live action movie, GL:TAS, and the DCAMU, but that's an extension of DC Comic bigwigs calling the shots, who are the same guys keeping Hal on top in comics).

    Assuming they don't recast, who else besides John Stewart could they give the limelight?
    Vixen is the obvious choice. Black Lightning (his show is ending), Bronze Tiger, and Steel are all strong picks. Bumblebee would be good to draw in younger audiences (although her name does draw attention to a certain Transformer...). Amazing Man has a good premise from a quick google search. These are just the ones I can name off the top of my head as a more casual fan. Someone tasked with scouring through DC's catalog could find a few more that make make excellent solo films, or at least fill out an ensemble cast.

  10. #55
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    And the rumor is that they want Michael B. Jordan for the role. Which, while I like him as an actor, you'd think he'd think twice about taking it after the shitstorm that was Fantastic Four.
    Jordan reportedly actually said he wanted specifically to play the Calvin Ellis version of Superman, and yet WB seemingly is still going with race swapped Clark Kent. If Jordan is smart he'll steer clear of this. He gave WB the golden idea here, the path to a black Superman that'd cause the least controversy (yes, there'd still be controversy, but mostly it'd just be racists and people who don't know there's more than one Superman and aren't paying attention). But instead of listening to the actor, who clearly knows his DC stuff and wants to play that character, they decided on something wildly dumber.

  11. #56
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You think it is smart idea for company to be second guess by themselves? What if the fans don't like who is casted John Stewart? All you would be hearing is they should have casted John Stewart from Zac Synder project. You might think it does not matter but some people are unable to see a Erza Miller as Flash because of TV Show. A small cameo could do that do Green Lantern so why not have people only associate one person with your character.
    The desire of some fans to have just the one actor play the one character in all media and always and forever is something we really need to let go off and try to wean them off of.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It is a waste. They could do a Cyborg movie featuring other Titans, and a Hal-John buddy movie! They could do so much more.
    I hate Cyborg. He's like the most boring black character DC has. I wish DC/WB would have put that amount of shoving him down my throat into every other black character but nope. Where's the critically acclaimed run by a big time writer? Wait there is none? Is it because no writer cares or because the guy just isn't interesting? Geoff Johns wanted the cash of nostalgic Teen Titans fans and that's why he put Cyborg in Justice League comics. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    I think it's the exact opposite of this topic's question. Hollywood uses inclusion/diversity for the reason something flops. They take away the wrong message again and again.
    Like the BoP movie. It didn't suck because it was all girls or a property not well know it sucked because... well, actually I'm the only one who likes it.
    Last edited by batnbreakfast; 05-09-2021 at 12:52 AM.

  13. #58
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    I hate Cyborg. He's like the most boring black character DC has. I wish DC/WB would have put that amount of shoving him down my throat into every other black character but nope. Where's the critically acclaimed run by a big time writer? Wait there is none? Is it because no writer cares or because the guy just isn't interesting? Geoff Johns wanted the cash of nostalgic Teen Titans fans and that's why he put Cyborg in Justice League comics. End of story.
    Really? I'll admit to not being as familiar with him from the comics side of things, but in the cartoons and tv side of things he's consistently great!
    Although the DCEU version is a bit dull, but that could just be Snyder...

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Really? I'll admit to not being as familiar with him from the comics side of things, but in the cartoons and tv side of things he's consistently great!
    Although the DCEU version is a bit dull, but that could just be Snyder...
    I'm open to recommendations of cartoons and TV since I only know Cyborg by reading comics or the horrible Whedon/Snyder version.

  15. #60
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    I'm open to recommendations of cartoons and TV since I only know Cyborg by reading comics or the horrible Whedon/Snyder version.
    First off, skip Teen Titans Go! Whatever you do, do not watch Teen Titans Go!

    Teen Titans though, the original cartoon, is quite fun and is where a lot of the modern fandom of Cyborg stems from. Definitely give it a shot.
    The DCAMU's Cyborg is pretty cool. I mean he features most prominently in the first movie, JL:War, which sadly is neck and neck with Son of Batman for worst DCAMU movie, and Cyborg is still in his "angry at daddy" stage, but otherwise is pretty darn decent Cyborg content.
    Young Justice: Outsiders is probably the worst on the "father and anger issues" origin, but he gets better over time and by season's end is a pretty decent take.
    The Lego DC Superheroes movies he appears in takes more after the Teen Titans mold, and those movies are just a joy all around.

    I haven't seen Doom Patrol yet which he's in, but I hear a lot of good things about it!

    DCAMU and YJ are a bit of a mixed bag because of the daddy issues origin stuff, but still end with a fairly fun character, while Teen Titans and Lego is of course a mite silly, but all together his media appearances are a net positive and are a strong reason for why he's gotten to be so popular these days.

    (And even Teen Titans Go can be fun sometimes in small doses...)

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