Is Hollywood Using Diversity To Justify Potentially Doomed Franchises?

[Panic]

Rey didn't look great at all in TLJ. Her whole plan to get Kylo to convert failed, and even though she brought Luke out of hiding in the end, he never actually left, and all she did was save a small group of Resistance fighters. And we still got little actual characterization and introspection with her. RoS didn't do her any favors though

Yes, but the whole point is that all the lead characters fail in this film, just like Luke fails against Vader, and Han is captured and carbonated in TESB. Rey, however, is seen to be so powerful she doesn't need training from Luke, or anyone for that matter, she appears roughly equal to Kylo Ren in skill in the throne room fight, and she rescues everyone at the end. She gets plenty of talking up, and most of the best scenes in the film. Honestly, if it wasn't for her storyline I'd have fallen asleep in the theatre.

[godisawesome]

You keep stating that like it's fact, but I really don't think it is. Rey came out best of all the characters in TLJ. The film sets her up as THE hero, and attempts to make Kylo Ren look like a credible villain. it squanders almost everyone else, though I think it at least gives Luke a decent send-off. It wasn't Rey's fan-base who complained about TLJ.

Now RoS did attempt to rebalance everything and make everyone happy, but it was an impossible task doomed to failure (though I myself quite enjoyed the film first time around).

A hell of a lot of Rey fans turned on TLJ - because that fanbase got split between Kylo Ren fanboys and fan girls on one side, and between people who weren’t Kylo aren’t fanboys and fan girls on the other. It basically comes down tot he only thing TLJ really cared about for the new characters: making Kylo Ren the new male lead over Finn, and making Rey his Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

Rey was reduced to a girl crying that her crush didn’t want to stop being a homicidal psychopath, was retconned into not giving a true damn about what Kylo did to Finn or Han beyond asking one lousy question to Kylo, before TLJ also depicts her as not caring that much about her own torture and violation in the previous story, has her submit to torture and violation *again* so that Kylo could fail upwards into being a main villain without becoming more formidable or interesting...

...And it’s just not really her movie. TFA ended with her already set-up to be the new protagonist (much like how Finn was already set-up to be a Resisatnce member, Poe was already a leader, etc.) but TLJ put that on hold for an epilogue for Luke and to reformat the story of course on Kylo. Kylo literally tells her she has no place in the story... and she walks off stage for a bit so that he and Luke can take over for the rest of the film.

Plus...

Rey didn't look great at all in TLJ. Her whole plan to get Kylo to convert failed, and even though she brought Luke out of hiding in the end, he never actually left, and all she did was save a small group of Resistance fighters. And we still got little actual characterization and introspection with her. RoS didn't do her any favors though

The “little characterization and introspection” thing is big. Rey’s *not* the protagonist of TLJ who’s POV and character arc matters - we get three separate flashbacks showing Kylo and Luke’s history, they’re history is what matters most to them and Rey, and Rey is used for their stroy-arcs, not the other way around.

TLJ has a lot fo strong ideas and performative beliefs... but it’s fundamentally a film where it says “you don’t have to be a white male Skywalker to be the main character or lead!... well, once *I’m* done making a movie where absolutely everything is reset to focus on white male Skywalkers.”

No one should look to TLJ for an example of good diversity, representation, or inclusive POVs. It’s the exact opposite of that.

[CosmiComic]

Yes, but the whole point is that all the lead characters fail in this film, just like Luke fails against Vader, and Han is captured and carbonated in TESB. Rey, however, is seen to be so powerful she doesn't need training from Luke, or anyone for that matter, she appears roughly equal to Kylo Ren in skill in the throne room fight, and she rescues everyone at the end. She gets plenty of talking up, and most of the best scenes in the film. Honestly, if it wasn't for her storyline I'd have fallen asleep in the theatre.

Hadn't she already known how to fight because she alone in the desert for so long? The movie was already repeating story beats from the OT. Did we really need to see another training montage?

Anyway, I realize she was supposed to fail in the middle of the movie. I just don't think she accomplished much of anything. My problem with her is her lack of distinct personality, not her power level.

[CosmiComic]

A hell of a lot of Rey fans turned on TLJ - because that fanbase got split between Kylo Ren fanboys and fan girls on one side, and between people who weren’t Kylo aren’t fanboys and fan girls on the other. It basically comes down tot he only thing TLJ really cared about for the new characters: making Kylo Ren the new male lead over Finn, and making Rey his Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

Rey was reduced to a girl crying that her crush didn’t want to stop being a homicidal psychopath, was retconned into not giving a true damn about what Kylo did to Finn or Han beyond asking one lousy question to Kylo, before TLJ also depicts her as not caring that much about her own torture and violation in the previous story, has her submit to torture and violation *again* so that Kylo could fail upwards into being a main villain without becoming more formidable or interesting...

...And it’s just not really her movie. TFA ended with her already set-up to be the new protagonist (much like how Finn was already set-up to be a Resisatnce member, Poe was already a leader, etc.) but TLJ put that on hold for an epilogue for Luke and to reformat the story of course on Kylo. Kylo literally tells her she has no place in the story... and she walks off stage for a bit so that he and Luke can take over for the rest of the film.

Plus...


The “little characterization and introspection” thing is big. Rey’s *not* the protagonist of TLJ who’s POV and character arc matters - we get three separate flashbacks showing Kylo and Luke’s history, they’re history is what matters most to them and Rey, and Rey is used for their stroy-arcs, not the other way around.

TLJ has a lot fo strong ideas and performative beliefs... but it’s fundamentally a film where it says “you don’t have to be a white male Skywalker to be the main character or lead!... well, once *I’m* done making a movie where absolutely everything is reset to focus on white male Skywalkers.”

No one should look to TLJ for an example of good diversity, representation, or inclusive POVs. It’s the exact opposite of that.

Exactly. Kylo got much more of a consistent character progression across the movies than Rey or any other hero did. Even Luke got a mediocre return and died at the end of LJ anyway.

Her still showing interest in a problematic relationship is much worse than her power levels, however rushed they were

[regnak]

Hadn't she already known how to fight because she alone in the desert for so long? The movie was already repeating story beats from the OT. Did we really need to see another training montage?

Anyway, I realize she was supposed to fail in the middle of the movie. I just don't think she accomplished much of anything. My problem with her is her lack of distinct personality, not her power level.

Yes we needed to see her training because that is how it works in the SW universe you have potential but need training for various techniques. Instead she was treated more like a Marvel mutant who just had vast powers activate.

[CosmiComic]

Yes we needed to see her training because that is how it works in the SW universe you have potential but need training for various techniques. Instead she was treated more like a Marvel mutant who just had vast powers activate.

I meant mostly the lightsaber stuff. While I would've liked to see her train more with her Force powers, off-screen acquiring Force powers happens all the time in Star Wars

[Killerbee911]

Yes we needed to see her training because that is how it works in the SW universe you have potential but need training for various techniques. Instead she was treated more like a Marvel mutant who just had vast powers activate.

Did you need to see Luke train to fly a X-wing? That is how it works in SW universe right?

[godisawesome]

Yes we needed to see her training because that is how it works in the SW universe you have potential but need training for various techniques. Instead she was treated more like a Marvel mutant who just had vast powers activate.

That’s a problem I can understand... but one that I still feel is a bit more on TLJ and apathy towards Rey than on TFA or TROS (the latter of which actually did insist on some offscreen training.) TFA at least tries hard to show that Kylo still has an experience and training edge, and needs him breaking down and wounded a lot to have Rey beat him,

Pure power itself, though, isn’t always a hassle to a story. Captain Marvel was running off the idea Carol actually wielded several magnitudes of power more than she needed to fight the villains of her movie, and made its dramatic meat be more her investigating her own past and trying to contain the Kree’s genocidal campaign.

So with Captain Marvel, while it’s not one of my favorite MCU films at all, I don’t think it’s because Carol’s power level is so huge, or the way it tried to embrace being a “girl power” film. It’s more a mix of other issues in execution the film had, and even then, it’s still very watchable.

One of the weirder things for me about diversity, though, is how I’m liable to support it in some instances more as a “means to an end” for a character I already love anyways - like Cassandra Cain, who I would still love to see in a better film than HQ: Birds of Prey.

Any of you guys have any thoughts on how HQ: BOP handled Cass? I felt like she was selected more for representation than actual functionality or appeal there, unlike with Black Canary, where I felt the race lift was completely, even if the character still felt moderately wasted.

[Noodle]

Unless I'm remembering it incorrectly didn't 99.9% of Anakin's training happen off-camera between Episodes I and II?

[WebLurker]

I don't think anyone is afraid or angered by a star wars female leading character, Rey was just not a good one. poor thought characters like Rey hurt honest diversity.

Sad to say, there are people online who are exactly that. (So far as the latter, I don't like arguments that require ignoring textual material, but mileage may vary.)

[godisawesome]

Sad to say, there are people online who are exactly that. (So far as the latter, I don't like arguments that require ignoring textual material, but mileage may vary.)

Yeah, there were blatantly people who hated Finn, Rose, and others for being non-white, and Rey is clearly dealing with some sexism as well.

There *is* an interesting case of “factionalism” on both ends of the ST, though, in regards to representation and the backlash against it; TLJ especially pits progressives against progressives in a lot of ways, since it’s a film that preaches one thing and practices another.

[CosmiComic]

Did you need to see Luke train to fly a X-wing? That is how it works in SW universe right?

Yeah, that didn't make sense either.

Unless I'm remembering it incorrectly didn't 99.9% of Anakin's training happen off-camera between Episodes I and II?

I think so

Sad to say, there are people online who are exactly that. (So far as the latter, I don't like arguments that require ignoring textual material, but mileage may vary.)

There was a huge amount of online backlash against the ST just for having a female protagonist. How can anyone not know that?

[Scott Taylor]

Problem is you can't have Ryan Coogler direct everything. But it would be good to try anyway.

[regnak]

Did you need to see Luke train to fly a X-wing? That is how it works in SW universe right?

No because that is not the Force. It would have been so much better if Rey had started as Luke’s last surviving student but then Abrams could not have taken so much from ANH.

[80sbaby]

No because that is not the Force. It would have been so much better if Rey had started as Luke’s last surviving student but then Abrams could not have taken so much from ANH.

That's not the issue. TFA could've remained largely the same. Rey being revealed as one of Luke's student's could/should have happened in TLJ. They didn't even need to change her being related to Palpatine or the idea of a Diad (or whatever it's called.) Just show that Luke mindwiped her to keep her and Kylo apart, before he (Kylo) used her to amass some great power or something.