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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Problem is you can't have Ryan Coogler direct everything. But it would be good to try anyway.
    Coogler still has some ways to go, but he is on the right part. Not much to completely tell from his Black Panther movie because MCU makes their movies very manufactured, however if we were just to judge him on Creed and Judas and the Black Messiah, yeah, I see him getting to the level Steve Mcqueen.

    Usually when it comes African American actors or directors or entertainers , I hate using the term the ''next Denzel Washington'' or the ''next Spike Lee'' to describe a newcomer, because it feels more like trying to put two black entertainers against each other or using them to replace the other, which itself is racist, I know this well from watching documentaries about Naomi Campbell and Tyra Banks and history having a rule, that they only allow....one black person at a time to shine.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-15-2021 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    To be fair (and as you can tell, I’m going deep into my Star Wars freak knowledge) force lightning can be quite dangerous even to those wielding it. The Emperor has a history of over relying on it.

    That’s why in Episode 3, even when Yoda successfully blocked the force lighting with his saber The Emperor couldn’t stop and he got blown off the platform he and Yoda were fighting on. Mace Windu reflected back Palpatines lighting and disfigured him before that.

    I guess that could be the reason he vaporized himself when he was fighting Rey and in a broken and damaged body.

    But yeah, that scene was all kind of stupid.
    It's possible, although with Windu I always thought that was intentional.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, while Kelly Marie Tran's troubles was somewhat more publicized, it was pretty much there from the beginning. I mean, back in the day there were racists justifying objecting to John Boyega being in the movie under the pretext that black stormtroopers didn't exist before, which was pretty bad logic considering that the clone troopers (literally the G1 stormtroopers) had been depicted as non-white characters in the prequels (it's embarrassing how so few people didn't push back on that). And there was, of course, the "Rey is a Mary Sue" crap we've had to deal with ever since we learned that she was the new Jedi character and the whole double standard compared to the male Jedi leads in the previous films (I find it extremely funny how much of the "Mary Sue" arguments had to ignore parts of the film and facts previously established in the franchise).



    I really don't like how toxic all that got. I mean, worse case scenario, it was a bad movie in the franchise; we've been there and done that before, and Star Wars bounced back from it. While the prequel hate maybe should've been a clue that certain people would take it personally if they didn't like any of the new movies, it did make discussing it really hard, even after you separated the bigots and all that. (I personally thought it was really good and what the franchise needed, but that's me.)

    Remember one of the movie vicious Star Wars haters on YouTube (of the "anti-SJW and anti-woke" variety of bigots) did quite the 180 after TLJ; they'd apparently loved TFA (to the extent of claiming that it proved that George Lucas had destroyed the franchise), but after that movie, it was all about how Disney didn't know what they were doing and had destroyed the original movies. In retrospect, I think that YouTuber was always more than a little unhinged, but it was still amazing to watch from the sidelines.
    Are there any anti-woke/anti-SJW people who aren't problematic?

  3. #273
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    oh lawdy, I just read someone compare Rey to a mutant. sure no. with mutants , at least you can explain why they have their powers and they do get proper training.


    Rey is some kind of bizarre fairy tale character Disney cooked up to sell perfection to children in a fake disguise of diversity.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It's possible, although with Windu I always thought that was intentional.



    Are there any anti-woke/anti-SJW people who aren't problematic?
    I have my criticism of Rey and the sequel trilogy as a whole but the anti-woke, anti-SJW people made the whole discussion so toxic. These were the same guys that made hundreds of videos about Brie Larson and Captain Marvel.

    And I'm not even saying this jokingly, some of these guys really, really need to see their therapists instead of crying about Rey, feminism and Captain Marvel (although it must be noted that some of them are just hucksters using those words to game the youtube algorithm to boost their view counts). They seem to be really struggling with stuff in their lives and they are projecting it onto others. They're so miserable and I always tell people, define yourself by what you like and not what you don't like. And people shouldn't allow fiction and fictional characters define their lives.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-15-2021 at 07:49 AM.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I have my criticism of Rey and the sequel trilogy as a whole but the anti-woke, anti-SJW people made the whole discussion so toxic. These were the same guys that made hundreds of videos about Brie Larson and Captain Marvel.

    And I'm not even saying this jokingly, some of these guys really, really need to see their therapists instead of crying about Rey, feminism and Captain Marvel (although it must be noted that some of them are just hucksters using those words to game the youtube algorithm to boost their view counts). They seem to be really struggling with stuff in their lives and they are projecting it onto others. They're so miserable and I always tell people, define yourself by what you like and not what don't like. And people shouldn't allow fiction and fictional characters define your lives.
    Yeah, these people went out of their way to damage the discourse around fictional characters. That's why I'm wary whenever I see or hear any kind of arguments these people use

  6. #276
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    Heh. The toxicity caused by bigots is part of the reason I keep on beating the drum tattoo for TLJ’s bigger problems being it’s own systemic racism and sexism; partially because I want to make sure my own complaints aren’t lopped in with those idiots...

    ...And partially because I *genuinely* think Rey getting a more sexist story and Finn getting a more racist story, with Kylo “benefitting” from both, actually caused substantial and observable problems with the Sequel Trilogy. Rey and Finn’s popularity took a dive after TLJ, and both the female and black demographics took a dive afterwards as well - I *can* find the numbers if someone wants them, but both shrunk as percentages of the opening day audience in the last two films even as both films lost 50% of the audience from TFA.

    Quite simply, way too much of the Sequel Trilogy now revolves around Kylo Ren, and way too much effort from LFL was going towards intentionally demoting Finn and making Rey bound to a parasitic relationship with Kylo - she can’t even appear on TLJ marketing material without Kylo, now.

    A lot of the morons who waved the “anti-woke” flag after TLJ cover up the fact that apathy and disappointment with the new characters was a major problem that extended beyond the treatment of Luke (still catastrophic, in my opinion, but relegated to one film) or the film’s preachiness (which means nothing if it won’t practice it.)

    Honestly... I don’t think anyone was pretending they were excited for Rey’s story or Finn’s story after TLJ, and the Kylo Ren fans were torn between a few who liked the idea of him being a villain and those who wanted him to just take over the entire story (which *is* a sexist and racist desire, even if an unintentional one.) What you had was people still expounding the hypothetical strengths of TLJ, and ignoring the ruin of characterization in its wake.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 05-15-2021 at 09:38 AM.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  7. #277
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    I didn't even find TLJ preachy, I just thought its commentary was half-baked.

    I have a lot of criticisms towards the sequel trilogy, but I too have to be careful because these morons have made the debate so caustic. I'm trying in my own way to pull it back from that. And their criticisms are often unfounded if not outright bigoted

  8. #278

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    Ultimately Hollywood is looking for a magic bullet to make any film a success. Diversity is gonna be their latest attempt. It's gonna fail because there is "no magic bullet" for storytelling.

    I'm not against diversity at all. It's a potential selling point and brings up new opportunities. I'm just trying to be realistic about how to use it.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 05-15-2021 at 09:52 AM.

  9. #279
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    Diversity goes beyond casting or who is in front of the camera. There must be diversity behind the camera too.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Ultimately Hollywood is looking for a magic bullet to make any film a success. Diversity is gonna be their latest attempt. It's gonna fail because there is "no magic bullet" for storytelling.

    I'm not against diversity at all. It's a potential selling point and brings up new opportunities. I'm just trying to be realistic about how to use it.
    THIS. While a lack of diversity of people is an issue Hollywood seems to at least be trying to address, I'd also like to see Hollywood address it's lack of diversity in storytelling. But I don't have high hopes. Our current age of Hollywood rebooting/remaking everything under the sun and their unwillingness to cease beating dead franchises still brings in a metric fuckton of money. And that's all that matters to them.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Ultimately Hollywood is looking for a magic bullet to make any film a success. Diversity is gonna be their latest attempt. It's gonna fail because there is "no magic bullet" for storytelling.

    I'm not against diversity at all. It's a potential selling point and brings up new opportunities. I'm just trying to be realistic about how to use it.
    Bold Truth.

    And this is why the other thread about POC and discrimination, the argument on that thread most of it fell flat, usually filed with false takes of the X-Universe or rewriting history or setting up inconsistent new rules to justify half truths, although that thread was more about a bad MCU vs X-Men debate for some , than any objective discussion because if it really was an objective discussion, we would not even be in a long debate when the facts and evidence where clear that X-Men best tackled this issue of discrimination in Hollywood fiction when it comes to comics and it was not close. lol

    it is indeed about story telling, this is what xmen had in abundance over anything we have seen recently and will ever see with marvel again, even if marvel was to race bend all the xmen characters, marvel just does not have the story telling deep focus to tackle discrimination or diversity in a serious mature manner, because their story telling tends to be light hearted, fun driven, watered down for kids and shallow with diversity or discrimination not been the main plot of their entire film or tv shows.

    There is no magic bullet to change that. it has to be about story itself in any kind of form, real life, allegories, metaphors Just putting surface level diversity for the sake of it by race bending, with no substance in the story or real deep issue why diversity is important is nonsense film making , nonsense story telling and yes, nonsense Wokeness and one thing is clear in Hollywood.

    Go woke, Go broke. No better proof of this than Star Wars ST, their obsession with girl power Rey and their lousy treatment of Finn and Rose hurt the box office and along with every other movie or tv show Hollywood has race or gender bent all for diversity reason than story telling. most of them have bombed.
    Last edited by Castle; 05-15-2021 at 01:34 PM.

  12. #282
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    The Sequel Trilogy “going woke” had nothing to do with its problems - if anything, it was the snap back to “sleep” that caused the problem. The $700 million difference between TFA and TLJ didn’t come from girls and black people pushing out white males from the audience - it came more from Rina Johnson making a pretentious story of white male pain that overrode everything else.

    The problem ultimately with purely performative and surface level diversity is that its ultimately not diversity - and in the case of TLJ, it wound up being much more about white male privilege than anything else. It mattered more to Rian Johnson that Kylo Ren’s feelings were hurt and that Luke was having an existential crisis is then that he had an ex-slave soldier or a toughened survivor girl as his previous leads... so he demoted those two characters in favor of Luke and Kylo.

    And yes, we need more diversity behind the camera - Finn’s ass ain’t getting demoted, and Rey’s not getting pimped out to Kylo, if there’s more diversity behind the ST.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The Sequel Trilogy “going woke” had nothing to do with its problems - if anything, it was the snap back to “sleep” that caused the problem. The $700 million difference between TFA and TLJ didn’t come from girls and black people pushing out white males from the audience - it came more from Rina Johnson making a pretentious story of white male pain that overrode everything else.

    The problem ultimately with purely performative and surface level diversity is that its ultimately not diversity - and in the case of TLJ, it wound up being much more about white male privilege than anything else. It mattered more to Rian Johnson that Kylo Ren’s feelings were hurt and that Luke was having an existential crisis is then that he had an ex-slave soldier or a toughened survivor girl as his previous leads... so he demoted those two characters in favor of Luke and Kylo.

    And yes, we need more diversity behind the camera - Finn’s ass ain’t getting demoted, and Rey’s not getting pimped out to Kylo, if there’s more diversity behind the ST.
    The sequel trilogy tore down Luke's character, made his story arc in the original trilogy worthless, just to prop up Rey. that was part of the basic foundation problems of the sequel trilogy.

    Where is the logical argument that gave Rey the benefit of the doubt that she is the chosen one when she had no good story telling attached to her character unlike Luke that had a lot and more to spare.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The sequel trilogy tore down Luke's character, made his story arc in the original trilogy worthless, just to prop up Rey. that was part of the basic foundation problems of the sequel trilogy.

    Where is the logical argument that gave Rey the benefit of the doubt that she is the chosen one when she had no good story telling attached to her character unlike Luke that had a lot and more to spare.
    If they’d torn down Luke for Rey’s sake, she wouldn’t have been kicked out of the finale so that Luke and Kylo could do it as well.

    Face it: The Last Jedi tore down Luke so that it could pretend Kylo Ren, another pasty white guy, was sympathetic enough to have a girl put herself through torture and violation *again* for his sake. Johnson didn’t give a damn about Rey.

    The fact she had no good storytelling attached to her in TLJ is because Johnson was hyper focused on Luke and Kylo. The fact his Luke story sucked is because he wanted to tell a pretentious man pain story with Luke, when pretentious man pain stories are already kind fo dubious on the best of days, and don’t fit Luke at all.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    If they’d torn down Luke for Rey’s sake, she wouldn’t have been kicked out of the finale so that Luke and Kylo could do it as well.

    Face it: The Last Jedi tore down Luke so that it could pretend Kylo Ren, another pasty white guy, was sympathetic enough to have a girl put herself through torture and violation *again* for his sake. Johnson didn’t give a damn about Rey.

    The fact she had no good storytelling attached to her in TLJ is because Johnson was hyper focused on Luke and Kylo. The fact his Luke story sucked is because he wanted to tell a pretentious man pain story with Luke, when pretentious man pain stories are already kind fo dubious on the best of days, and don’t fit Luke at all.
    Yeah, I feel like Johnson could've given much more of a personality to Rey. I didn't like what happened to Luke either, but aside from getting some rushed power-ups, Rey didn't get much either

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