Is Hollywood Using Diversity To Justify Potentially Doomed Franchises?

[Castle]

Yep, still Star Wars sequels I see. I didn't watch them, looked at the reviews and decided I'd rather wait a bit...and then the arguments started and I since wrote them off - it seemed like whichever side of the argument you were one, people just weren't enjoying those movies. I'm still a bit interested in seeing the debate this thread poses, but I'm lost now as all the talk has narrowed down to one specific set of films I've no intention of seeing. Not complaining, just that there's nothing left to engage with in this discussion if you haven't seen the sequel trilogy.

Let's think because I cannot seem to remember. has there been any other series that has done diversity by Hollywood's narrow thinking of the subject that has been great?

Sure star wars Sequel trilogy is the poster child but most of them like the OP said all headed for doom. they doomed themselves. Terminator Dark Fate, Ghostbusters, Men in Black.

[regnak]

The sequels became ground zero of the "diversity in movies being bad" conversation.

Which is honestly just bunk because those movies weren't really pushing any "diversity" message.

If anything, I would argue it really failed two actors of color - John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran. Worse still, when these guys were railed on social media, Lucasfilm/Disney kept totally shut. Same with Daisy Ridley, she had to completely quit social media. I have my criticism of how Rey was handled but there’s an armybvof incels and losers that have problems with seeing strong women.

I will say this again they gave so much to Rey there was almost nothing left for Finn. Someone mentioned that a lot of black males didn’t watch after TFA and I thought why would they? The trailers made it look like he would be a Jedi instead he was just a sidekick. If he had Han’s skill set Finn would have had much more to do and it would have soothed the disappointment over the bait and switch. People excited to see a black man be one of the stars of the ST had every right to expect he would be a legendary hero like the trio in the OT all were but no he wasn’t.

[godisawesome]

The times the DCEU and MCU have gone after diversity both in front of and behind the camera, it paid off big time; Black Panther is its own success story and was expect3 to do so thanks in part to the sheer pedigree of all involved, but Aquaman also had James Wan directing great, billion-dollar performances out of Jason Mamoa and Yahya Abdul Mateen II. And Captain Marvel went out of its way to get female writers and directors, even if male writers and directors worked in partnership with them, and made, again, a billion dollars. Wonder Woman didn’t make a billion, but the first one was still a smash success, with a female director behind it as well.

I think the “behind the camera” thing is the biggest sign that the attempt at diversification is sincere from the production company, and honestly then shows more about how aware the production company is regarding the actual talent pool they’re looking through.

Which is why earlier, I tried asking for some feedback on this thread’s opinions of Birds of Prey.

Because I remember it was profitable... but still a bit abbreviated in terms of profitability. And while it was directed by an Asian American woman and written an Englishwoman of Taiwanese descent, it was also well known to be a star-driven vehicle by Margot Robbie. And overall, I remember it’s strengths being it’s cast... but not necessarily their utilization.

It often struck me as a film composed to ensure Harley Quinn remained front and center in a way that may not have been guaranteed with a Gotham City Sirens film, and to intentionally underutilize The Birds (and totally refit Cass Cain) to ensure that.

[Konja7]

It often struck me as a film composed to ensure Harley Quinn remained front and center in a way that may not have been guaranteed with a Gotham City Sirens film, and to intentionally underutilize The Birds (and totally refit Cass Cain) to ensure that.

I have understood Margot Robbie could have a Harley Quinn solo, but she wants this to be a team movie (to introduce other minor female characters).

So, I think the intentions were good (the results not so much).

[Username taken]

I will say this again they gave so much to Rey there was almost nothing left for Finn. Someone mentioned that a lot of black males didn’t watch after TFA and I thought why would they? The trailers made it look like he would be a Jedi instead he was just a sidekick. If he had Han’s skill set Finn would have had much more to do and it would have soothed the disappointment over the bait and switch. People excited to see a black man be one of the stars of the ST had every right to expect he would be a legendary hero like the trio in the OT all were but no he wasn’t.

Exactly.

It's one of my biggest problems with the sequel trilogy.

[Username taken]

The times the DCEU and MCU have gone after diversity both in front of and behind the camera, it paid off big time; Black Panther is its own success story and was expect3 to do so thanks in part to the sheer pedigree of all involved, but Aquaman also had James Wan directing great, billion-dollar performances out of Jason Mamoa and Yahya Abdul Mateen II. And Captain Marvel went out of its way to get female writers and directors, even if male writers and directors worked in partnership with them, and made, again, a billion dollars. Wonder Woman didn’t make a billion, but the first one was still a smash success, with a female director behind it as well.

I think the “behind the camera” thing is the biggest sign that the attempt at diversification is sincere from the production company, and honestly then shows more about how aware the production company is regarding the actual talent pool they’re looking through.

Which is why earlier, I tried asking for some feedback on this thread’s opinions of Birds of Prey.

Because I remember it was profitable... but still a bit abbreviated in terms of profitability. And while it was directed by an Asian American woman and written an Englishwoman of Taiwanese descent, it was also well known to be a star-driven vehicle by Margot Robbie. And overall, I remember it’s strengths being it’s cast... but not necessarily their utilization.

It often struck me as a film composed to ensure Harley Quinn remained front and center in a way that may not have been guaranteed with a Gotham City Sirens film, and to intentionally underutilize The Birds (and totally refit Cass Cain) to ensure that.

Exactly.

This stuff tends to work out when you actually have diverse film makers make this stuff.

Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman and Black Panther really stand out in this regard. That's why I don't really agree with Forbes article regarding the potentially black Superman. If Ta-Nehisi Coates ends up writing, he's DEFINITELY not going to phone it in. His BP comic work was actually very intricate and very detailed but to me didn't work on a conceptual level.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I thought this was a cool pitch for a Terminator sequel. The franchise's problem is T2 already resolved Judgement Day. You have to find another conflict and this is focused on the good ending of T2 not being free of problems. It's just different ones from what Sarah and John were afraid of.

[CosmiComic]

Exactly.

This stuff tends to work out when you actually have diverse film makers make this stuff.

Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman and Black Panther really stand out in this regard. That's why I don't really agree with Forbes article regarding the potentially black Superman. If Ta-Nehisi Coates ends up writing, he's DEFINITELY not going to phone it in. His BP comic work was actually very intricate and very detailed but to me didn't work on a conceptual level.

I don't think all of his ideas for BP were bad, just a lot of them

[Castle]

Exactly.

This stuff tends to work out when you actually have diverse film makers make this stuff.

Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman and Black Panther really stand out in this regard. That's why I don't really agree with Forbes article regarding the potentially black Superman. If Ta-Nehisi Coates ends up writing, he's DEFINITELY not going to phone it in. His BP comic work was actually very intricate and very detailed but to me didn't work on a conceptual level.

But of all this films , how many can we truly say their success or stand out were about serious film artistic metrics, that this movies are actually great if we look at them through a film academic lense only? at the onset of the new millennium, post Batman and Robin era, the superhero genre standard was very high. we are talking of X-Men 1 first scene in a nazi camps that gave comic films a realistic complex world with a no-sorry mature tone, something that has never be done before with comic films and The Dark Knight and purely compelling human character driven arcs like Spiderman 2 with ground-breaking VFX as the train scene in Spiderman 2 that pushed superhero VFX scenes to new heights that still has been rarely matched today in film making?

Compared that to now , how far will Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have gone, because 20 years ago, been a female and having an all black cast would not earn you success or great reviews by default if your story telling is not impressive or your overall film making mass manufactured or just followed the narrative that comic films are fun action stuff.

Wonder Woman of all the 3 films is the only film that would have still succeeded as it did , but maybe even not by much as it did , because back then there was not much focus on female empowerment and wonder woman seems to be the least mass manufactured films of all the diversity pushed movies that has come out since Oscar so White and Harvey Weinstein Scandal. So Wonder Woman would still have succeeded but I dont think it would have reached 500 million back then , since no Batman film before TDK had done over 500 million.

Critics won't have cared much for Black Panther, they would have considered it very average and the film would have gotten sharp criticism of its lack of focus on real discrimination issues or compelling characters arcs and Captain Marvel would have suffered the same fate as Electra, Supergirl and Catwoman and all other female comic films that bombed.

This is part of the problem with diversity now, people want to only focus on that and ignore if the movies is objectively great or not. this is why Ghostbusters 2016 also failed and also Ghostbusters has no back up like the MCU. Films like Black Panther and Captain that are very mass manufactured comic films and are as generic light as the other comic films since mids 2010s were saved and became overhyped because they are part of the MCU well oil machined and we now live in a political hot climate that has made it's way to films.

In a nut shell. Hollywood shallow take of diversity is hurting the serious thought of film making critique. These new diversity movies they are making for that only reason will never be artistically judge honestly like Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption and that hurts the art of cinema and also hurts their own genre...which are superhero films.

[Vakanai]

Let's think because I cannot seem to remember. has there been any other series that has done diversity by Hollywood's narrow thinking of the subject that has been great?

Sure star wars Sequel trilogy is the poster child but most of them like the OP said all headed for doom. they doomed themselves. Terminator Dark Fate, Ghostbusters, Men in Black.

Terminator Dark Fate's problem was killing John just to tell the same story with someone else. Ghostbusters' biggest sin was choosing to be a reboot rather than a sequel. But...Men in Black was already diverse, haven't seen it so not sure what the blame there is.

[Immortal Weapon]

Terminator Dark Fate's problem was killing John just to tell the same story with someone else. Ghostbusters' biggest sin was choosing to be a reboot rather than a sequel. But...Men in Black was already diverse, haven't seen it so not sure what the blame there is.

Men In Black was directionless. The movie had no idea what it wanted to be.

[Vakanai]

Men In Black was directionless. The movie had no idea what it wanted to be.

Well, that would explain it.

[skyvolt2000]

In a nut shell. Hollywood shallow take of diversity is hurting the serious thought of film making critique. These new diversity movies they are making for that only reason will never be artistically judge honestly like Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption and that hurts the art of cinema and also hurts their own genre...which are superhero films.

Well if everybody is going to throw fits at the skin color or sexual orientation of the leads-we can't discuss anything else.

If Leslie Jones is the only person targeted for Ghostbuster hate-I don't want to hear about plot or pacing or being remembered.
Same with Jordan in Fantastic Four.
Same with Boyega in Star Wars.

I want to know why only POC were targeted? And so many folks went with it.

Put a POC as the lead and here comes the complaints before it comes out.

Who cares about artistically nonsense. When Forrest Gump and others got made-how many POC lead projects could not get pitched?

How many POC could not try out for role X? How many POC got passed over for roles because Hollywood had to pander to a certain demo?


Until the trolls who hate anything POC related are taken out of the picture-we will struggle to have an honest conversation about issues in movies.

Fantastic Four was not a perfect movie by ANY means. It should NOT have been used as a rallying call to end Michael B Jordan's career. Yet he has done better the all of his co-stars.

[CosmiComic]

I wouldn't bother trying to argue against anti-woke types

[WebLurker]

But of all this films , how many can we truly say their success or stand out were about serious film artistic metrics, that this movies are actually great if we look at them through a film academic lense only? at the onset of the new millennium, post Batman and Robin era, the superhero genre standard was very high. we are talking of X-Men 1 first scene in a nazi camps that gave comic films a realistic complex world with a no-sorry mature tone, something that has never be done before with comic films and The Dark Knight and purely compelling human character driven arcs like Spiderman 2 with ground-breaking VFX as the train scene in Spiderman 2 that pushed superhero VFX scenes to new heights that still has been rarely matched today in film making?

Compared that to now , how far will Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have gone, because 20 years ago, been a female and having an all black cast would not earn you success or great reviews by default if your story telling is not impressive or your overall film making mass manufactured or just followed the narrative that comic films are fun action stuff.

Wonder Woman of all the 3 films is the only film that would have still succeeded as it did , but maybe even not by much as it did , because back then there was not much focus on female empowerment and wonder woman seems to be the least mass manufactured films of all the diversity pushed movies that has come out since Oscar so White and Harvey Weinstein Scandal. So Wonder Woman would still have succeeded but I dont think it would have reached 500 million back then , since no Batman film before TDK had done over 500 million.

Critics won't have cared much for Black Panther, they would have considered it very average and the film would have gotten sharp criticism of its lack of focus on real discrimination issues or compelling characters arcs and Captain Marvel would have suffered the same fate as Electra, Supergirl and Catwoman and all other female comic films that bombed.

This is part of the problem with diversity now, people want to only focus on that and ignore if the movies is objectively great or not. this is why Ghostbusters 2016 also failed and also Ghostbusters has no back up like the MCU. Films like Black Panther and Captain that are very mass manufactured comic films and are as generic light as the other comic films since mids 2010s were saved and became overhyped because they are part of the MCU well oil machined and we now live in a political hot climate that has made it's way to films.

In a nut shell. Hollywood shallow take of diversity is hurting the serious thought of film making critique. These new diversity movies they are making for that only reason will never be artistically judge honestly like Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption and that hurts the art of cinema and also hurts their own genre...which are superhero films.

Can we please not turn this into another stealth "the MCU sucks" thread? It's getting so old.