How the MCU did dirty with Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne

[CosmiComic]

Had the MCU actually used Hank and Jan as the main Ant-Man & Wasp, where would Scott have fit in?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Had the MCU actually used Hank and Jan as the main Ant-Man & Wasp, where would Scott have fit in?

Probably not at all, or at best occupy the Sam Wilson or Rhodey role in the Ant-Man side of things, assuming of course that Hank and Janet are successful enough for there to be an "Ant-Man side of things". If Hank and Janet were used in the MCU as the prime Ant-Man and Wasp, obviously we would have younger actors to play them. There would be issues about adaptation in terms of do you keep the age difference between Hank and Janet in the comics where she's young and early 20s and he's in his 40s...that would probably not go down well. Do you include the first Russian wife who died? By making the characters older, they composited Janet and Maria into a single character and made that work. But if they were prime...most likely they would have changed the characters completely. And Janet van Dyne as a rich supermodel would most likely be changed to becoming a super-scientist mostly because of mainstream and fan baggage to supermodel as female characters and so on, and to avoid dealing with the "airhead rich girl" that often follows Janet in the weakest Avengers stories, and was the source of Hank's toxic masculinity in comics.

Hank Pym and Janet always had problems becoming protagonists because there wasn't much to distinguish or separate them from the Fantastic Four. I mean 616 Hank and Janet are basically a clone of Reed and Sue...he's a scientist who tinkers too much and she's a younger sexy arm-candy who's constantly going "come back to bed" while he says "I am working on my test-tubes". Janet was also fashion conscious and a clothes-horse (traits which Susan Storm showed in the early FF run). There's more to that of course...Janet's Wasp was certainly a more compelling character than Lee-Kirby Susan Storm, and later when she became part of the Avengers, she was for a time the most capable female superhero (at least until Jean Grey revived under Claremont). And Tales to Astonish had a kind of co-equal partnership between Ant-Man and the Wasp that kind of slipped when they joined The Avengers. In the MCU, Hank and Janet would likely be a retread of Tony and Pepper, and Hank as a kind of accomplished academic genius and so on would be hard to make a protagonist because the darkest part of his origin was him losing his first wife, and if you include that and the fact that he fell for Janet because of her resemblance to Maria you have a fundamentally toxic setup for a romance. So in a lot of ways, Scott Lang simply made more sense. He's working-class, older guy with a divorce and daughter, not at all a typical MCU protagonist. Paul Rudd's Scott is just naturally likable and charming and the entire thing becomes a father-daughter story that separates it from the FF and the IM.

The biggest problem for Hank Pym as a character in comics, was him joining The Avengers. His comics didn't sell enough to get an ongoing so that meant he became part of the dumping ground repurposed for Avengers-ship. And since Tony, Steve, Thor had their own titles that meant that Avengers writers couldn't deal personal drama with them in Avengers' books, so that meant Hank and Janet were tagged. The issue of Hank being the "useless Avenger" in the Roy Thomas era was a result of the fact that Thomas couldn't do anything damaging with Tony and Steve and Thor in his run. But Hank was fair game, so Hank and Ant-Man got the short-end of the stick, and he got these costume changes, and the personal drama of his angst and jealousy about Janet being the girl in a team of other guys who were at least as smart, capable and handsome as Hank. To use a sitcom example, he was Ross and she was Rachel. That stuff piled up and added to a character whose real estate had fallen low...he had departed completely from the version and story he was introduced by Lee-Kirby to the point that David Michelinie created Scott Lang to revive that original concept. And Jim Shooter essentially performed the coup-de-grace.

The greatest story centered on Hank Pym was the Trial of Yellowjacket, that 20 issue saga which began with him abusing Janet, getting divorced and culminating in him defeating the masters of evil himself and then realizing that he never wanted to be a superhero and had to quit. That was pretty much the end of him as a superhero. And Hank Pym as an ex-superhero is the one aspect that's retained in the MCU version even if they removed the abusing Janet part. In 616, Hank Pym works as a cautionary tale for what happens when you go "too Marvel". Marvel was all about superheroes with feet of clay, who made mistakes and fouled up...well Hank has the most claylike feet, made the most mistakes and fouled up beyond redemption. No matter how much Peter Parker whines about "Parker Luck" he can at least go, "well I'm not Hank Pym" and when Susan is feeling miffed about Reed she can go, "well at least he's not Hank" and when Tony thinks about all the time he went off the wagon he can go, "well at least I didn't go Hank". If not the characters themselves, as readers you can apply that...Hank Pym becomes the yardstick for what happens when you go "too Marvel" and reveals that a good part of Marvel's angst and stuff is kiddie-level and not to be taken seriously.

[CosmiComic]

Probably not at all, or at best occupy the Sam Wilson or Rhodey role in the Ant-Man side of things, assuming of course that Hank and Janet are successful enough for there to be an "Ant-Man side of things". If Hank and Janet were used in the MCU as the prime Ant-Man and Wasp, obviously we would have younger actors to play them. There would be issues about adaptation in terms of do you keep the age difference between Hank and Janet in the comics where she's young and early 20s and he's in his 40s...that would probably not go down well. Do you include the first Russian wife who died? By making the characters older, they composited Janet and Maria into a single character and made that work. But if they were prime...most likely they would have changed the characters completely. And Janet van Dyne as a rich supermodel would most likely be changed to becoming a super-scientist mostly because of mainstream and fan baggage to supermodel as female characters and so on, and to avoid dealing with the "airhead rich girl" that often follows Janet in the weakest Avengers stories, and was the source of Hank's toxic masculinity in comics.

Hank Pym and Janet always had problems becoming protagonists because there wasn't much to distinguish or separate them from the Fantastic Four. I mean 616 Hank and Janet are basically a clone of Reed and Sue...he's a scientist who tinkers too much and she's a younger sexy arm-candy who's constantly going "come back to bed" while he says "I am working on my test-tubes". Janet was also fashion conscious and a clothes-horse (traits which Susan Storm showed in the early FF run). There's more to that of course...Janet's Wasp was certainly a more compelling character than Lee-Kirby Susan Storm, and later when she became part of the Avengers, she was for a time the most capable female superhero (at least until Jean Grey revived under Claremont). And Tales to Astonish had a kind of co-equal partnership between Ant-Man and the Wasp that kind of slipped when they joined The Avengers. In the MCU, Hank and Janet would likely be a retread of Tony and Pepper, and Hank as a kind of accomplished academic genius and so on would be hard to make a protagonist because the darkest part of his origin was him losing his first wife, and if you include that and the fact that he fell for Janet because of her resemblance to Maria you have a fundamentally toxic setup for a romance. So in a lot of ways, Scott Lang simply made more sense. He's working-class, older guy with a divorce and daughter, not at all a typical MCU protagonist. Paul Rudd's Scott is just naturally likable and charming and the entire thing becomes a father-daughter story that separates it from the FF and the IM.

The biggest problem for Hank Pym as a character in comics, was him joining The Avengers. His comics didn't sell enough to get an ongoing so that meant he became part of the dumping ground repurposed for Avengers-ship. And since Tony, Steve, Thor had their own titles that meant that Avengers writers couldn't deal personal drama with them in Avengers' books, so that meant Hank and Janet were tagged. The issue of Hank being the "useless Avenger" in the Roy Thomas era was a result of the fact that Thomas couldn't do anything damaging with Tony and Steve and Thor in his run. But Hank was fair game, so Hank and Ant-Man got the short-end of the stick, and he got these costume changes, and the personal drama of his angst and jealousy about Janet being the girl in a team of other guys who were at least as smart, capable and handsome as Hank. To use a sitcom example, he was Ross and she was Rachel. That stuff piled up and added to a character whose real estate had fallen low...he had departed completely from the version and story he was introduced by Lee-Kirby to the point that David Michelinie created Scott Lang to revive that original concept. And Jim Shooter essentially performed the coup-de-grace.

The greatest story centered on Hank Pym was the Trial of Yellowjacket, that 20 issue saga which began with him abusing Janet, getting divorced and culminating in him defeating the masters of evil himself and then realizing that he never wanted to be a superhero and had to quit. That was pretty much the end of him as a superhero. And Hank Pym as an ex-superhero is the one aspect that's retained in the MCU version even if they removed the abusing Janet part. In 616, Hank Pym works as a cautionary tale for what happens when you go "too Marvel". Marvel was all about superheroes with feet of clay, who made mistakes and fouled up...well Hank has the most claylike feet, made the most mistakes and fouled up beyond redemption. No matter how much Peter Parker whines about "Parker Luck" he can at least go, "well I'm not Hank Pym" and when Susan is feeling miffed about Reed she can go, "well at least he's not Hank" and when Tony thinks about all the time he went off the wagon he can go, "well at least I didn't go Hank". If not the characters themselves, as readers you can apply that...Hank Pym becomes the yardstick for what happens when you go "too Marvel" and reveals that a good part of Marvel's angst and stuff is kiddie-level and not to be taken seriously.

IMO Hank and Jan are a more interesting version of Reed and Sue. I don't think Hank would be too much of a retread of Tony if they focused more on his mental issues. I also don't see how Hank or Jan could be considered useless on a team with Clint and Nat. I can imagine Jan would be changed to be more of a scientific character. As for the age difference, I always assumed he was only about 10 years older than Jan. I think the MCU would probably create a less toxic version of their comic relationship

Even without the uncomfortable abuse and storylines, Hank and Jan could've still been tied to Ultron and Vision.

Scott probably would fill a role similar to Rhodey, because in a way Scott is to Hank what Rhodey is to Tony, or Jennifer Walters is to Bruce.

[Chris0013]

Had the MCU actually used Hank and Jan as the main Ant-Man & Wasp, where would Scott have fit in?

Like I have said before...Hank moves on from Ant-Man to another identity and Scott steals the suit to save his daughter like in the comics.

[CosmiComic]

Like I have said before...Hank moves on from Ant-Man to another identity and Scott steals the suit to save his daughter like in the comics.

Makes sense. But then if Hank used the Yellowjacket identity, maybe Cross wouldn't have.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

IMO Hank and Jan are a more interesting version of Reed and Sue.

They are but the Fantastic Four are also about Ben Grimm, Johnny, Doctor Doom, so Reed and Sue don't have to sink the book. And later runs have rounded them out fairly well.

I also don't see how Hank or Jan could be considered useless on a team with Clint and Nat.

Clint and Nat provide a grounded human perspective in the Avengers. If everyone on the team has powers, you can't do scenes like in Avengers 1 when Hulk goes nuts and chases after Black Widow who is especially threatened because she's super-vulnerable. Likewise you can't do moments where Nat says, "this is god and monsters and nothing we've been trained for" or that scene in ENDGAME in the Soul Stone between Nat and Clint. Since Nat has no powers or big franchise, when she dies you know it's a real death. Whereas you know that eventually Tony Stark is gonna come back in some shape and form.

A superhero team isn't a football team. A football team is about having the best players and the best stats (in theory and largely fantasy football since other factors like fatigue, morale, discipline -- you know pesky inter-personal human stuff -- counts). A superhero team is about what makes the best story and provides variety and different viewpoints.

[CosmiComic]

They are but the Fantastic Four are also about Ben Grimm, Johnny, Doctor Doom, so Reed and Sue don't have to sink the book. And later runs have rounded them out fairly well.

Yeah, but Hank and Jan have the Avengers, don't they?

Clint and Nat provide a grounded human perspective in the Avengers. If everyone on the team has powers, you can't do scenes like in Avengers 1 when Hulk goes nuts and chases after Black Widow who is especially threatened because she's super-vulnerable. Likewise you can't do moments where Nat says, "this is god and monsters and nothing we've been trained for" or that scene in ENDGAME in the Soul Stone between Nat and Clint. Since Nat has no powers or big franchise, when she dies you know it's a real death. Whereas you know that eventually Tony Stark is gonna come back in some shape and form.

A superhero team isn't a football team. A football team is about having the best players and the best stats (in theory and largely fantasy football since other factors like fatigue, morale, discipline -- you know pesky inter-personal human stuff -- counts). A superhero team is about what makes the best story and provides variety and different viewpoints.

I don't entirely agree. My main point is Hank and Jan aren't somehow less useful than Clint and Nat. Besides, I thought those two were lame in most of these movies. I don't mind low-power characters. I like Captain America and Black Panther, and they're not mega powerful either. I just thought seeing Hawkeye and BW weren't interesting characters. As for powers, they didn't bring much either. At least with Ant-Man and Wasp there's some diversity of superpowers. Otherwise it's just punching, flying and beams.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, but Hank and Jan have the Avengers, don't they?

No the Avengers had them. The Avengers as a title didn't do favors to their character.

I don't entirely agree. My main point is Hank and Jan aren't somehow less useful than Clint and Nat. Besides, I thought those two were lame in most of these movies. I don't mind low-power characters. I like Captain America and Black Panther, and they're not mega powerful either. I just thought seeing Hawkeye and BW weren't interesting characters. As for powers, they didn't bring much either. At least with Ant-Man and Wasp there's some diversity of superpowers. Otherwise it's just punching, flying and beams.

Again you are looking at this from fantasy-football point of view, not from a storytelling point of view. Avengers 1 was the first time you had a superhero team-up in movie history, and it was a bold difficult thing to get right. That meant streamling. The first adventure had to be a basic team get together banter and come together. That works best when only a few of them are strong personalities while having some of them be characters you can bounce around with others. Nat and Clint served that purpose.

If you put Hank and Janet in the first film, they would be similar to Tony and Hulk, and get in everyone's faces which would repeat the dynamic that Bruce and Tony have with Steve and Thor (well Hulk moreso than Bruce).

Again storytelling isn't about fantasy football and stats. Avengers 1 worked and became a global success and it had Nat and Clint in that film. You can't look at that success and say those two were useless because evidence doesn't support it.

[CosmiComic]

No the Avengers had them. The Avengers as a title didn't do favors to their character.



Again you are looking at this from fantasy-football point of view, not from a storytelling point of view. Avengers 1 was the first time you had a superhero team-up in movie history, and it was a bold difficult thing to get right. That meant streamling. The first adventure had to be a basic team get together banter and come together. That works best when only a few of them are strong personalities while having some of them be characters you can bounce around with others. Nat and Clint served that purpose.

If you put Hank and Janet in the first film, they would be similar to Tony and Hulk, and get in everyone's faces which would repeat the dynamic that Bruce and Tony have with Steve and Thor (well Hulk moreso than Bruce).

Again storytelling isn't about fantasy football and stats. Avengers 1 worked and became a global success and it had Nat and Clint in that film. You can't look at that success and say those two were useless because evidence doesn't support it.

I am looking it at from a storytelling point of view, not a fantasy football view (I don't play fantasy football). Hank and Janet aren't similar to Bruce and Tony. I don't get how that's a repetitive dynamic. Jan is especially different from the other characters, versus the SHIELD agent dynamic we got with Clint and Nat. And their powers are distinct enough from the others. IMO that's an improvement in terms of storytelling.

Clint was barely even a character in Avengers 1, and Nat wasn't much better Her characterization was inconsistent for several movies and was mostly off-screen backstory. I realize they needed to streamline things, but the results weren't optimal, even if it did make a huge amount of money. Financial success isn't a total "everything is good with the movie". Them having weak personalities next to the others was a disservice to their stories. I remember those parts of the movie being criticized even back in 2012. Of course I would've like those two to get better storylines in that movie, but if we're talking hypotheticals, I really think Hank and Jan would've made better additions than Clint and Nat, from a storytelling point of view.

[Triniking1234]

Movies. They were getting slammed for not having any feature led by women or poc's. I mean, three back-to-back movies starring a blonde white man named Chris was both hilarious and an indictment.

The comics relaunching with Sam as Cap, Jane Foster as Thor, Amadeus as Hulk and Marvel TV launching Agent Carter, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage helped off set some of the criticisms but overall, Marvel was late to the party when it came to diversity.

I'm still not sure what people were expecting. They're books based on 1960s comics.

[gurkle]

Had the MCU actually used Hank and Jan as the main Ant-Man & Wasp, where would Scott have fit in?

They could have done a film set in the 1960s with Hank and Jan, and then, in the sequel, Hank is old and Scott takes over.

Peyton Reed famously pitched the idea of doing a Fantastic Four movie set in the '60s, the idea being that these more old-fashioned characters would work better in an old-fashioned setting (I doubt they'll use this idea for the MCU Fantastic Four though). It applies equally well to Hank and Jan, maybe even more so.

Ironically, the rise of de-aging technology makes it less likely that they'll ever do a movie like this. If it was 10 years ago, they might at least consider a prequel with younger actors playing Hank and Jan; today they'd be expected to get Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer to sign on, and then de-age them in every scene, and those things together would cost an astronomical amount of money.

[CosmiComic]

They could have done a film set in the 1960s with Hank and Jan, and then, in the sequel, Hank is old and Scott takes over.

Peyton Reed famously pitched the idea of doing a Fantastic Four movie set in the '60s, the idea being that these more old-fashioned characters would work better in an old-fashioned setting (I doubt they'll use this idea for the MCU Fantastic Four though). It applies equally well to Hank and Jan, maybe even more so.

Ironically, the rise of de-aging technology makes it less likely that they'll ever do a movie like this. If it was 10 years ago, they might at least consider a prequel with younger actors playing Hank and Jan; today they'd be expected to get Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer to sign on, and then de-age them in every scene, and those things together would cost an astronomical amount of money.

I heard about that pitch. I'll be honest, I have little interest in a 60s set superhero movie. De-aging also doesn't really work in the action scenes. And I'm not sure how Hank and Jan are more old-fashioned than Steve, or even Thor with his archaic Shakespearean language. F4 are kind of old-fashioned though, at least from what I've seen

My question was more if Hank and Jan were younger, closer in age to the regular Avengers.

[gurkle]

My question was more if Hank and Jan were younger, closer in age to the regular Avengers.

I suppose they might have done something a bit similar to the comic where Jan becomes the Wasp, where her father is killed and she becomes the Wasp to avenge him. In a more modern story they wouldn't have Hank suggest it like he did in the comics, maybe she would actually just steal his tech and turn herself into the Wasp. And then the sequel would have history repeating itself when Scott Lang steals Hank's tech.

[CosmiComic]

I suppose they might have done something a bit similar to the comic where Jan becomes the Wasp, where her father is killed and she becomes the Wasp to avenge him. In a more modern story they wouldn't have Hank suggest it like he did in the comics, maybe she would actually just steal his tech and turn herself into the Wasp. And then the sequel would have history repeating itself when Scott Lang steals Hank's tech.

I could see her already working alongside him when her father dies, and they decide together to design her suit

[Chris0013]

Makes sense. But then if Hank used the Yellowjacket identity, maybe Cross wouldn't have.

Hank could have gone to using Giant Man or Goliath.