How the MCU did dirty with Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne

[LAWtoyoto 432]

I feel like being the founder Avengers member in the comics and even Janet came up the name of the "Avengers". It feel frustration to see how the MCU treat them like a background/retire characters. Moreover with the annoucement of "Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania". I pretty sure they are alos only focus much with Scott lang and Hope. Which is sucked for the casual fans. The same problem happen for Monica Rambeau at the other thread, since she is the first black woman to take the mantle of "Captain Marvel".

[gurkle]

No argument there. Of all the "classic Avengers" characters who were the core of the team in the '60s (like Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther), Hank and Jan are the least recognizable in the MCU.

The sad thing is the idea of making Hank and Jan the heroes of an earlier time period has a lot of potential. If only we got an Ant-Man Wasp movie set in the past, followed by a movie where the mantle is passed to Scott and Hope. But Edgar Wright signed on to do Scott's story, and Hank and Jan wound up becoming collateral damage of the delays of that movie.

[CosmiComic]

I don't disagree on the main premise. Jan is the first female Avenger yet barely got anything to do yet.

Idk if it's the same with Monica though. Technically she's from the same generation of heroes as Scott, while Carol is closer to that of Hank and Jan.

Anyway, they still could've had a younger Hank and Jan in the first Ant-Man, ideally in phase 1, and Scott in ant-Man 2.

[Phoenixx9]

Hank and Jan should have been in Avengers from day 1, and they should have been the superheroes featured in Ant-Man and the Wasp.

While I am on it, I might as well get my other peeves out: Much as I like her, Black Widow got way too much air time. Quicksilver should be alive and well with the Avengers.

[Oberon]

Yes, this is a regret and a stinging one at that. I have a very large and soft spot for my female characters. Jan is nearly at the top of that.

[Killerbee911]

I would have love to see a scene with Hulk, Antman, Ironman, Wasp ,and Thor in Endgame like how the ladies group happen in the final battle but other than that "Oh well".

[Oberon]

I would have love to see a scene with Hulk, Antman, Ironman, Wasp ,and Thor in Endgame like how the ladies group happen in the final battle but other than that "Oh well".

Not a bad idea. Perhaps we might get a past look, flashback, someday or perhaps with the multiversal nature of Loki or other projects we might see this.

That would be cool; retro looks, Iron Man's big gold armor etc.

[CosmiComic]

Hank and Jan should have been in Avengers from day 1, and they should have been the superheroes featured in Ant-Man and the Wasp.

While I am on it, I might as well get my other peeves out: Much as I like her, Black Widow got way too much air time. Quicksilver should be alive and well with the Avengers.

Black Widow and Hawkeye are some of the most boring Avengers tbh. I would've traded Hawkeye and Black Widow for Quicksilver, Hank and Jan

I feel Janet especially got a raw deal. As has been said here, she came up with the name "The Avengers" and she was a far more active and regular part of the Avengers than Hank Pym was. But then that's been the case in the comics ever since Hankistas feeling that their hero's honor was stained got set on repairing Hank's reputation, which has, not coincidentally, come at her expense.

But it was inevitable. In the age of social media, no way does Marvel or its creators want to deal with journalists asking them "are you going to deal with the character's domestic abuse from the comics?" and have that clickbait trail words like Disney and Marvel.

So the solution is to not have her, because she was a victim of abuse?

[scribbleMind]

I'm not upset at all. Edgar Wright's Ant-Man was being worked on before the MCU was a thing. As such, the decisions weren't MCU decisions. They were decisions made for the sake of the story he wanted to tell. It was a heist film, so of course Scott Lang would be the lead given that he's a former criminal and all that. Conventionally a hero in an action movie needs a love interest, and Edgar Wright is not opposed to convention. The building blocks of Baby Driver are built on convention. You have Janet, but that wouldn't work. That would be weird. You're going to end up with your mentor's wife? No. So you create Hope, but Hope results in Hank and Janet being aged up. Hope, being a brand new character, needs something to motivate her. She needs some sort of pathos. Her mom is gone and she blames her father.

As far as story is concerned the decisions made are all incredibly natural, particular for a movie that wasn't originally intended to be part of some larger cinematic universe. I wish there was more Janet too, and I'm not even particularly a Janet fan, but to make her such a driving force for Hope and Hank's action and then bring her back in the first movie or even the first half of the second movie with little fanfare would be garbage. I think the end of the second movie was the perfect time to bring her back. It is kind of a shame she wasn't in Endgame or anything, but she just got back from the quantum realm. Why would she want to be involved in all of that? If I just got back from the quantum realm I'm trying to catch-up and enjoy normalcy for as long as I can considering I married a super scientist. Thanos is back? Well that's to bad, because I'm eating a steak right now, and I haven't had one for decades.

I just think it all makes sense, and because it all makes sense I can't be mad at it. I'd have to wait for Ant-Man 3 to be upset about the status quo of Ant-Man. Now all the pieces are finally on the board, now they are fully meshed within the MCU, now they are getting the chance to go at a major major marvel villain, I think the is the first time they are in a position to make an Ant-Man movie that could appeal to every Ant-Man and Wasp fan.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Black Widow and Hawkeye are some of the most boring Avengers tbh.

Creating a story around a group or a team necessitates the existence of "boring people" to maintain interest. Somebody has to be straight and normal in a superteam so that they provide some kind of grounded center to the story.

So the solution is to not have her, because she was a victim of abuse?

The solution is not foreground Hank or Janet because that way they can avoid having any spotlight shined on the fact that the most famous and important story featuring Hank Pym was the one where he beat his wife.

A more interesting question is why is it that Hank Pym needed to be in the mentor role while Janet was "the lost lenore"? You could have had Hank lost in the Quantum Realm and Janet Pym as the older Wasp as the mentor figure with a difficult relationship with the daughter and the movies would play the same way.

I'm not upset at all. Edgar Wright's Ant-Man was being worked on before the MCU was a thing. As such, the decisions weren't MCU decisions.

Edgar Wright was removed and he didn't shoot any footage and his script was rewritten so if the MCU wanted, they could have featured Hank as the main Ant-Man at any time. The obvious reason why the MCU were okay with a decision as unusual and drastic as kneecapping Ant-Man in favor of his legacy (which wasn't the norm or trend in comics up to that time) was because of him being a domestic abuser.

All the problems caused by one little art mistake that they could not get corrected in time.

I am going to go All-Caps now. So apologize in advance, and this isn't personally directed at you because I have done this constantly and repeatedly elsewhere every time it's cropped up. But here goes:

IT. WAS. NOT. AN. ART. MISTAKE.
IT. WAS. NEVER. AN. ART. MISTAKE.
THE INTENT OF THE STORY WAS ALWAYS THAT HANK ABUSED HIS WIFE.

Avengers #212 - 2.jpg
Avengers #212 - 3.jpg
Avengers #212 - 4.jpg


Here's the original Avengers issue #212. As you can see after Hank strikes Janet he forces her to go ahead with his bonehead scheme, and the next day at the Avengers court-martial, Thor's own dialogue at seeing Janet's black-eye is "Odd's Blood, did he strike you". That's the dialogue. No art mistake. The story was intentionally framing Hank's actions as abuse. Hankistas need to accept the cold fact -- Hank Pym abused his wife. You can't say "Art mistake" or bully Jim Shooter into claiming that on his blog (as he so stupidly and wrongly did). The receipts are there for all to see.

No need to throw Hank under the bus to say Jan was done dirty

It's the truth. Every attempt at redeeming or ginning up Hank or fixing Ant-Man has come at Janet van Dyne's expense. She became the leader of the Avengers (and she came up with the name) after their divorce and was in that role for major stories like UNDER SIEGE and for most of Roger Stern's run. We almost never get to see or hear that side of the Wasp in comics or other adaptations. There was that huge stretch in comics where Janet was killed off and Hank was kept alive to grieve over her because that's the interesting story apparently.

...since I feel like that's a side-issue and something we can pin on Edgar Wright and the existence of Hope Van Dyne. Because Peyton Reed cared way more about Hank and Janet than Wright did.

Edgar Wright was "hired help" he wasn't some creator or Kirby or Ditko-figure people had loyalty to. Peyton Reed and Kevin Feige reworked and recast the story significantly after he left and they own the movie they made. And the question is why is it that Hank Pym gets to be the cool grizzled mentor with Janet lost in the other dimension, when it could just as easily be the other way...Hank lost in the Quantum Realm, and Janet alive and in that role. The story would still revolve on Scott Lang and Hope and would play just as well.

[Chris0013]

Hank and Jan should have been in Avengers from day 1, and they should have been the superheroes featured in Ant-Man and the Wasp.

Agree...there should have been 2 movies with Hank and Jan with Hank moving from Ant Man to one of his other identities...and Scott getting the Ant Man suit for movie 3.

While I am on it, I might as well get my other peeves out: Much as I like her, Black Widow got way too much air time. Quicksilver should be alive and well with the Avengers.

I am not against Natasha's screen time...but it is what leads to my belief their should have been a Hawkeye movie set contemporaneously to CA:WS. Natasha was all over the place and Clint only had the cameo in Thor and then the 2 Avengers movies.

Agree on Quicksilver as well....they could have had him in a hospital bed hooked up on life support at the end or AoU.

I feel Janet especially got a raw deal. As has been said here, she came up with the name "The Avengers" and she was a far more active and regular part of the Avengers than Hank Pym was. But then that's been the case in the comics ever since Hankistas feeling that their hero's honor was stained got set on repairing Hank's reputation, which has, not coincidentally, come at her expense.

But it was inevitable. In the age of social media, no way does Marvel or its creators want to deal with journalists asking them "are you going to deal with the character's domestic abuse from the comics?" and have that clickbait trail words like Disney and Marvel.

All the problems caused by one little art mistake that they could not get corrected in time.

[Phoenixx9]

Agree...there should have been 2 movies with Hank and Jan with Hank moving from Ant Man to one of his other identities...and Scott getting the Ant Man suit for movie 3.

I am not against Natasha's screen time...but it is what leads to my belief their should have been a Hawkeye movie set contemporaneously to CA:WS. Natasha was all over the place and Clint only had the cameo in Thor and then the 2 Avengers movies.

Agree on Quicksilver as well....they could have had him in a hospital bed hooked up on life support at the end or AoU.
.

Natasha was not part of the original Avengers and only guested for a few issues, first as a villain, then as a love-interest for Hawkeye. Then she disappeared for a few years and then guested for a few issues, before doing this again in a few years. Then it was like another 5-6 years before she guested again.

Hank and Jan were there from the beginning. They could have added Cap and Hulk. In flashbacks, they could have shown Hawkeye, Wanda and Pietro joining, even if Hawkeye was first and then a little later Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. Natasha, if she needed to be added, could have come in later movies.

Just MHO.......

[davew128]

Hank and Jan should have been in Avengers from day 1, and they should have been the superheroes featured in Ant-Man and the Wasp.

While I am on it, I might as well get my other peeves out: Much as I like her, Black Widow got way too much air time. Quicksilver should be alive and well with the Avengers.

Quoted for truth. BW would have been best served as a secondary character who joined the team in AOU. She isn't and never really has been a main team member for any length of time. Her character simply isn't suited to being one of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". She's a spy and an assassin. In EMH she was shown pretty true to form.

I mean I get why BW and Hawkeye were in the film, it's because they were previously introduced. But from a nostalgia standpoint, sorry it should have been Jan and Hank.

[chicago_bastard]

Quoted for truth. BW would have been best served as a secondary character who joined the team in AOU. She isn't and never really has been a main team member for any length of time.

I guess leading the Avengers for more than 50 issues doesn't qualify. Looks even worse compared to the huge number of two issues that is basically the complete Avengers stint of the Hulk prior to the movie.

Why not just admit it's simply your personal preference, and instead try these mental gymnastics to somehow justify "objectively" what in the end is just a subjective opinion?