How the MCU did dirty with Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne

[Vic Vega]

It's not, but the first movie literally isn't anyone's vision. Because it took so long to come out, it HAD to be part of the MCU, so the movie Edgar Wright wanted to make was never made. That's not what we got because they forced other elements into it and it was re-written a lot. It wasn't really Feige's or Payton Reed's vision because they had to work with the bones of what Wright was going for and knit that together with the rest of the MCU. The movie took so long to reach production that if they wanted to start from scratch and make a fully MCU version of Ant-Man, we probably wouldn't have seen it until after Civil War at best. It is a Frankenstein of a film, but I think it could have been far worse.

We got a set of entertaining caper flicks featuring characters that have struggled to maintain relevance in the comics since they were created.

It could have been FAR worse....

[Phoenixx9]

But I am one of the few that liked Hope's hair style and the nod it gave to Janet.

No, I noticed!

But it seemed to be a nod to a much later Janet style wore.

Jan's long-time style had no bangs, was left-side parted, brown/auburn with a slight wave and a bob.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Not a bad idea. Perhaps we might get a past look, flashback, someday or perhaps with the multiversal nature of Loki or other projects we might see this.

That would be cool; retro looks, Iron Man's big gold armor etc.

That big gold armor would be so cool. The original Avengers should be acknowledged. Caps kooky quartet as well.

[Chris0013]

Natasha was not part of the original Avengers and only guested for a few issues, first as a villain, then as a love-interest for Hawkeye. Then she disappeared for a few years and then guested for a few issues, before doing this again in a few years. Then it was like another 5-6 years before she guested again.

Hank and Jan were there from the beginning. They could have added Cap and Hulk. In flashbacks, they could have shown Hawkeye, Wanda and Pietro joining, even if Hawkeye was first and then a little later Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. Natasha, if she needed to be added, could have come in later movies.

Just MHO.......

I just don't have a problem with Natasha being there in the role she had. But as I said above...Hank and Jan should have been there since the beginning as Ant-Man and Wasp in Phase 1 and the 1st movie. Hank change to another ID and be the creator or Ultron in the 2nd movie...and the identity in AoU. And Scott;s origin being the 3rd movie and using all of them throughout the MCU. It does come with some naming issues for continuity though.

[gurkle]

That big gold armor would be so cool. The original Avengers should be acknowledged. Caps kooky quartet as well.

There'sa deleted scene from Avengers: Age of Ultron where there's a shot of only Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver after arriving in Sokovia, which would have been a nod to the famous quartet.

[Frontier]

I feel Janet especially got a raw deal. As has been said here, she came up with the name "The Avengers" and she was a far more active and regular part of the Avengers than Hank Pym was. But then that's been the case in the comics ever since Hankistas feeling that their hero's honor was stained got set on repairing Hank's reputation, which has, not coincidentally, come at her expense.

But it was inevitable. In the age of social media, no way does Marvel or its creators want to deal with journalists asking them "are you going to deal with the character's domestic abuse from the comics?" and have that clickbait trail words like Disney and Marvel.

No need to throw Hank under the bus to say Jan was done dirty since I feel like that's a side-issue and something we can pin on Edgar Wright and the existence of Hope Van Dyne. Because Peyton Reed cared way more about Hank and Janet than Wright did.

I mean, it's not like Carol's problematic stuff got in the way of her being used in the MCU. And they made her the inspiration for The Avengers name despite it not even mattering at all.

[Chris0013]

There's a deleted scene from Avengers: Age of Ultron where there's a shot of only Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver after arriving in Sokovia, which would have been a nod to the famous quartet.

[CosmiComic]

No need to throw Hank under the bus to say Jan was done dirty since I feel like that's a side-issue and something we can pin on Edgar Wright and the existence of Hope Van Dyne. Because Peyton Reed cared way more about Hank and Janet than Wright did.

I mean, it's not like Carol's problematic stuff got in the way of her being used in the MCU. And they made her the inspiration for The Avengers name despite it not even mattering at all.

Exactly. Any of these characters can be adapted without t e problematic aspects. But why should Jan get tossed aside becausw of Hank?

As for Black Widow and Hawkeye, I've never gotten into them. They're a bit boring

[Frontier]

Exactly. Any of these characters can be adapted without t e problematic aspects. But why should Jan get tossed aside becausw of Hank?

As for Black Widow and Hawkeye, I've never gotten into them. They're a bit boring

I love them all .

[CosmiComic]

I love them all .

Hawkeye and Black Widow are ok but the MCU versions barely have any interesting abilities, and with then and thr other four, thr first Avengers movie was lacking in interesting powers IMO. Hank and Jan have more interesting abilities. Plus, I just don't care much about most spies in Marvel because they never seem to have interesting abilities.

[Chris0013]

Hawkeye and Black Widow are ok but the MCU versions barely have any interesting abilities, and with then and thr other four, thr first Avengers movie was lacking in interesting powers IMO. Hank and Jan have more interesting abilities. Plus, I just don't care much about most spies in Marvel because they never seem to have interesting abilities.

Having non powered characters makes it less expensive to put them on screen.

[chicago_bastard]

I'm still puzzled they shoehorned that unimportant Captain America who isn't even a founding member into the movie instead of an iconic character whose best remembered action in the comics was slapping his wife.

Also hope the next X-Men movie will feature the iconic founding member Iceman instead of some boring, non-iconic character like Wolverine.

[gurkle]

I'm still puzzled they shoehorned that unimportant Captain America who isn't even a founding member into the movie instead of an iconic character whose best remembered action in the comics was slapping his wife.

Also hope the next X-Men movie will feature the iconic founding member Iceman instead of some boring, non-iconic character like Wolverine.

C'mon, the movie lineup is clearly based on the comics lineup, and the sequel gave us three more Avengers from the classic 1960s run, so why shouldn't fans of Hank Pym be disappointed that he and Jan are the only founding Avengers that didn't make it in?

If they do an X-Men lineup based on the All-New All-Different lineup, but (let's say) Colossus is left out and doesn't get to be in the sequel either, you can bet his fans would be disappointed.

[Oberon]

Invisible Woman as Agent of Shield fulfilled some of that for me.

I mostly liked Widow years ago as an attache to the Avengers via her 'ship with Clint. She rose to the occasion etc.

I liked her during the Michael Korvac era too;

I now love my idea about *something* showing us an alt view of the Avengers, that looks like the original five.

Loki, MoM Dr. Strange, whatever.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Black Widow and Hawkeye are some of the most boring Avengers tbh.

Creating a story around a group or a team necessitates the existence of "boring people" to maintain interest. Somebody has to be straight and normal in a superteam so that they provide some kind of grounded center to the story.

So the solution is to not have her, because she was a victim of abuse?

The solution is not foreground Hank or Janet because that way they can avoid having any spotlight shined on the fact that the most famous and important story featuring Hank Pym was the one where he beat his wife.

A more interesting question is why is it that Hank Pym needed to be in the mentor role while Janet was "the lost lenore"? You could have had Hank lost in the Quantum Realm and Janet Pym as the older Wasp as the mentor figure with a difficult relationship with the daughter and the movies would play the same way.

I'm not upset at all. Edgar Wright's Ant-Man was being worked on before the MCU was a thing. As such, the decisions weren't MCU decisions.

Edgar Wright was removed and he didn't shoot any footage and his script was rewritten so if the MCU wanted, they could have featured Hank as the main Ant-Man at any time. The obvious reason why the MCU were okay with a decision as unusual and drastic as kneecapping Ant-Man in favor of his legacy (which wasn't the norm or trend in comics up to that time) was because of him being a domestic abuser.

All the problems caused by one little art mistake that they could not get corrected in time.

I am going to go All-Caps now. So apologize in advance, and this isn't personally directed at you because I have done this constantly and repeatedly elsewhere every time it's cropped up. But here goes:

IT. WAS. NOT. AN. ART. MISTAKE.
IT. WAS. NEVER. AN. ART. MISTAKE.
THE INTENT OF THE STORY WAS ALWAYS THAT HANK ABUSED HIS WIFE.

Avengers #212 - 2.jpg
Avengers #212 - 3.jpg
Avengers #212 - 4.jpg


Here's the original Avengers issue #212. As you can see after Hank strikes Janet he forces her to go ahead with his bonehead scheme, and the next day at the Avengers court-martial, Thor's own dialogue at seeing Janet's black-eye is "Odd's Blood, did he strike you". That's the dialogue. No art mistake. The story was intentionally framing Hank's actions as abuse. Hankistas need to accept the cold fact -- Hank Pym abused his wife. You can't say "Art mistake" or bully Jim Shooter into claiming that on his blog (as he so stupidly and wrongly did). The receipts are there for all to see.

No need to throw Hank under the bus to say Jan was done dirty

It's the truth. Every attempt at redeeming or ginning up Hank or fixing Ant-Man has come at Janet van Dyne's expense. She became the leader of the Avengers (and she came up with the name) after their divorce and was in that role for major stories like UNDER SIEGE and for most of Roger Stern's run. We almost never get to see or hear that side of the Wasp in comics or other adaptations. There was that huge stretch in comics where Janet was killed off and Hank was kept alive to grieve over her because that's the interesting story apparently.

...since I feel like that's a side-issue and something we can pin on Edgar Wright and the existence of Hope Van Dyne. Because Peyton Reed cared way more about Hank and Janet than Wright did.

Edgar Wright was "hired help" he wasn't some creator or Kirby or Ditko-figure people had loyalty to. Peyton Reed and Kevin Feige reworked and recast the story significantly after he left and they own the movie they made. And the question is why is it that Hank Pym gets to be the cool grizzled mentor with Janet lost in the other dimension, when it could just as easily be the other way...Hank lost in the Quantum Realm, and Janet alive and in that role. The story would still revolve on Scott Lang and Hope and would play just as well.