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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    IMO, Batman is not the impediment for your favorite characters' success, but rather DC not expanding the market. There have to be enough (at the moment) non-readers who would be willing to buy something without Bats, but how do you get their attention?
    They exist. However when they don't have FAITH in you as a company to repay their support-don't expect them to stay around.

    They have seen what as done to Wally West, Young Justice kids, John Stewart and others.
    They saw Cassandra Cain hold a 5 year run on a book and be DEEMED TOXIC.
    They see a Redjack get death threats over a book.
    They saw McDuffie get taken off a book over hatred for his JLA roster.
    They saw talent come and butcher characters (looking at you Jason Rusch).

    Lets try this-Cyborg volume 3 is being made.
    What is DC going to do to PROVE this is not yet another man versus machine series?
    Or the editor will NOT run the writer off like Harvey Richards did in volume 1?

    What provisions are being taken to make sure Green Lantern franchise does not become One person worship with John like it was with Hal?
    If Miles & Peter can co-exist -why can Barry and Wally?
    When does Duke Thomas get right instead of changing powers every series?

    Batman is an impediment if you are not willing to expand the market. Because everyone else is benefitting from it.

    Batman can't get Moon Girl, Miles, Ms Marvel or Champion readers. Gotham Academy can. Young Justice could. Superson could too. Or is that Static's job?

  2. #17
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    The problem is that you have fans out there that will buy anything with Batman (I'm assuming for investment potential?)
    I think the speculative market for a lot of that has fallen. I think most books are supported by people who just want to read them, rather than for investment.
    Remember, the anti-Batman sentiment of a lot of fans here is not representative of comic readership's opinions as a whole.

  3. #18
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Frankly, the real reason Marvel didn't focus on Spider-Man and X-men, their two top franchises, for so long was because of the situation with the film rights. That's what forced them to elevate the Avengers from a B-list franchise into their flagship franchise on-screen, and throught he MCU elevate other once obscure characters and franchises as well (Guardians of the Galaxy being the best example).

    DC/WB on the other hand didn't have the pressure of needing to elevate their other major characters because they had full control over their A-listers - Batman and Superman. And since they've struggled with getting a version of Superman who is widely beloved as much as the Donner/Reeve version was once upon a time (which isn't entirely their fault and depends on a bunch of factors), Batman has been their safest bet - in the comics, in the movies, in animation...basically everywhere.

    But to be fair, at least on the film side, they have spent the last few years focusing on the rest of their universe. By the time Reeves' Batman film comes out, it'll be a solid decade since the last solo Batman film. Wonder Woman and Aquaman have become fairly major franchises, the Shazam/Black Adam side of things is looking up, and hopefully Flash opens up not just the title characters mythos but the wider DCU as well. And lets not forget Justice League...whichever version of it floats your boat!
    Exactly this, when a company is forced to diversify thats when real creativity begins; if not they rest on their laurels.

    However, that's not to say DC hasn't tried but it usually falls apart within 16 months.

  4. #19
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Exactly this, when a company is forced to diversify thats when real creativity begins; if not they rest on their laurels.

    However, that's not to say DC hasn't tried but it usually falls apart within 16 months.
    And just because DC tries to diversify doesn't mean the sales will be there to support it.

    There was truly a lot of diversity at the start of the New52, but many of those titles didn't last because of sales not being strong enough. Whether that was the fault of readers not willing to buy them or of the comic book shops not ordering enough copies so that potential readers could buy them, I can't say. But you also have to have support / orders from the comic book shops for those non-Bat-titles for any change to succeed.

  5. #20
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    They always lean too hard into Batman.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    was there a time DC wasn't leaning into Batman? this isn't anything new.

  7. #22
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    was there a time DC wasn't leaning into Batman? this isn't anything new.
    Objectively, no, but if by "leaning into" we mean "Batman as the driving entity in the publishing initiative," then yes. '38 until the '80s, that was Superman. Bruce is only now coming up on dominating the publishing line for as long as Clark has and will soon have done so for longer.

    But those two have almost always been DC's primary two IP to tow the line with, so the simplest answer is "no."

  8. #23
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    For the record, and I probably should have made this clearer in my first post, but I was talking only about comics, not other media like shows, movies, etc.

  9. #24
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    And just because DC tries to diversify doesn't mean the sales will be there to support it.

    There was truly a lot of diversity at the start of the New52, but many of those titles didn't last because of sales not being strong enough. Whether that was the fault of readers not willing to buy them or of the comic book shops not ordering enough copies so that potential readers could buy them, I can't say. But you also have to have support / orders from the comic book shops for those non-Bat-titles for any change to succeed.
    Exactly!

    A new initiative will start off with a bang and then each subsequent issue has diminishing returns and then the execs/editors pull the emergency parachute and then we Dark Knights Omega Metal Part Duex
    Last edited by charliehustle415; 05-09-2021 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #25
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    More of you need to buy EVERYTHING that doesn't have BATMAN in it, and maybe DC will notice that other properties might actually sell.

    Until then, they have had various new series for characters like Aquaman and Green Arrow in the past, heroes who starred in successful movies or TV shows, but the books don't last until at least issue #100 because not enough shops order them / not enough people were buying them.

    Batman sells. Batman makes $'s for DC. So DC should stop publishing all the Bat-stuff.
    You have quickly become one of my favorite posters, you have a very reasonable insight into a lot of these things and call out the shenanigans going on with a lot of logic here.

    If you read this they have unreasonable expectations of DC comics.

    I know its like "Publish what I want! Other people like me EXIST!" but like people who are willing to buy everything Bat-related then you have to be willing to buy everything Vixen related x 2.

    They give a lot of people solo's but the fact is killing off Wolverine actually DOESN'T mean "Speedball - its free real estate".

    What I see is: Mr. Terrific gets a series and its universally panned, both by haters who are like "What is this NOBODY have a book" and worse by the people CLAMMORING for it before hand who are like:

    "This isn't EXACTLY WHAT I asked for! DISGUSTING"
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    They have no choice if that's all people want to buy.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nontheless):
    DC: Green Lantern, Wonder Girl, Far Sector, The Other History of the DC Universe, The Next Batamn, Robin, Nightwing
    Marvel: HiXmen, Miles Morales: Spider-Man, Immortal Hulk, Daredevil
    Image: Killadelphia, Bitter Root, Excellence, Decorum
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: Seven Secrets, Jember, Hawi, Watchman, Black Hammer

  12. #27
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    More of you need to buy EVERYTHING that doesn't have BATMAN in it, and maybe DC will notice that other properties might actually sell.

    Until then, they have had various new series for characters like Aquaman and Green Arrow in the past, heroes who starred in successful movies or TV shows, but the books don't last until at least issue #100 because not enough shops order them / not enough people were buying them.

    Batman sells. Batman makes $'s for DC. So DC should stop publishing all the Bat-stuff.
    Remind me again how many monthly DC books you're buying, Major...?

    I kid of course, but for the record I actually do buy *almost* every current DC book that's not Batman. I make my contribution, the rest of y'all need to catch up!
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  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    People don't want to buy Batman comics
    But people also apparently don't want to buy non Batman comics even more
    Its a really tough situation to be in with a dwindling market made up of older jaded fans

    I suggest DC kill off Batman entirely from say the comic books and continue his stories in a tv show/ movie format for the next 10-20 years
    That should be just enough time for all these C-D list characters to gain oxygen and maybe enough popularity to be around when they do bring Batman back
    Everything is even again at that point

  14. #29
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    You have quickly become one of my favorite posters, you have a very reasonable insight into a lot of these things and call out the shenanigans going on with a lot of logic here.

    If you read this they have unreasonable expectations of DC comics.

    I know its like "Publish what I want! Other people like me EXIST!" but like people who are willing to buy everything Bat-related then you have to be willing to buy everything Vixen related x 2.

    They give a lot of people solo's but the fact is killing off Wolverine actually DOESN'T mean "Speedball - its free real estate".

    What I see is: Mr. Terrific gets a series and its universally panned, both by haters who are like "What is this NOBODY have a book" and worse by the people CLAMMORING for it before hand who are like:

    "This isn't EXACTLY WHAT I asked for! DISGUSTING"
    Mr. Terrific's New 52 book just wasn't very good. Sometimes the product really is just subpar. Not the best example.

  15. #30
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    Well it's kinda a natural progression to things Didio did, ignore and destroy popular characters of franchises due to personal dislike which causes stagnation or destruction of entire franchises.

    There's no good reason the Flash franchise was still just one book after Barry came back, as both Barry and Wally could've supported a book, let alone a Flash family book or maybe even a Rogues book. Even with Rebirth, they could've just given Wally a book due increase goodwill among readers but DC just couldn't help themselves and did Heroes in Crisis instead.

    It's frankly just embarrassing the Titans franchise only has New Teen Titans, Johns' run, and Teen Titans Year One as runs fans can generally agree are good (or at least important) and then everything else is either considered terrible/mediocre (Team Titans, Lobdell's run, etc) or fans can't come to a consensus on whether a certain run is good (Grayson's, Rebirth, etc). Titans has the name brand, enough popular characters, and enough characters who haven't been explored that in depth to support at least two books and keep it going outside of getting yanked around by events and whatever the JL is doing. But DC just can't help themselves and has to kill off minor ones (hello HiC and every event they do) and drag the more popular ones through the dirt (hello Ric, Roy since 2010, Donna in general, Wally since Barry's return). And now they're just relying on a mystery of a cartoon character to keep people invested and even then they drag it through a crossover just 3 issues in. Absolutely no faith in the franchise or existing characters.

    JSA straight up supported two books for 7-8 years (JSA Classified and then JSA All Stars alongside the main books) and then Didio called them an outdated concept (despite having only 3 old geezers on the team, all of them having potential young replacements). Robinson tried keeping the JSA spirit alive but editorial pissed him off after like 15 issues and then that entire mess pretty much became another Batman and Superman book. And it's been 5 years since they started teasing the JSA and we had to wait three years for Doomsday Clock to finish and now we have to wait 6 months for Infinite Frontier to finish.

    Green Lantern... isn't entirely their fault and doesn't have it as bad as the others I mentioned. DC/Johns tried their best but after Johns left the franchise started to implode on itself, and the movie bombing and becoming a laughing stock didn't really help. At least they're somewhat aware the franchise can support two books, as Hal & Pals and GLs ran together for like 3 years, Infinite Frontier teased something with Hal/Guy/Kyle/Jess, and Round Robin has GL is one of the final four.

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