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  1. #16
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I feel this has been an issue with Superman. I fail to see any story that has been made better by having planet busting characters in it. Their comes a point were power levels become so abstract they become amorphous and unrelatable. Can you really tell the difference between a planet level And cosmic level strength.
    I don't think that's a realistic solution anymore. This is not the Golden Age when Superman was the only superhero or where all others were weaker and he was the Superman. Even Green Lantern back then was not a space spanning character.

    Look at what happened immediately Post-Crisis. Perhaps the biggest complaint was that Superman got nerfed and was in no way the most powerful hero. Wonder Woman and the Flash also got nerfed while the Green Lanterns, while maybe reduced in power a bit were still doing the cosmic stuff.

    I'm fine with vastly reducing Superman's power level as long as they proportionately do that to everybody. But then the GLs would have to be something like solar system travelers with the Guardians of the Solar System and so on. Batman would have to be a person of real human abilities, a really good detective and fighter who can't do superhuman stuff and just say it's not superhuman.

    I am one hundred percent on board with that as long as it's not just a screw Superman thing as if he is the only one who is ridiculously powerful when he is far, far from the only one and few people seem to have any problem with other characters being ridiculous in what they can do.
    Power with Girl is better.

  2. #17
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    I feel a big part of this is the freedom allowed to Thor's writers as well as Thor not being as shackled to a strict formula and setting as Superman has become.

    As you say, Superman seems confined to Metropolis these days (yes, I know the War World thing is coming).

    My favourite era of Superman was with Loeb/Kelley and co. There were big and long-running plans, he'd travel the world, space and greater DC Universe, the status quo shifted and changed, the supporting cast grew, his interactions with other DC characters (heroes and villains) grew, there were huge crossovers and smaller events just for fun (such as Return to Krypton), villains such as Luthor and Zod were used more as supporting characters which gave the eventual confrontations more weight.

    The status quo was still in place but things seemed to progress.

    Yet DC gave Superman a son and it felt like nothing has changed.

    I hate to say it, as I know many on this board are not fans, but I was enjoying Bendis' run (on and off) more than any since Rebirth as at least he had plans to make Superman and his world bigger. The supporting cast grew. He brought in new villains. We got Lois, Jimmy and Legion of Superheroes spin-offs (I've been reading Jimmy the last few days and it is a blast). Pity his end goal was apparently to replace Clark with Jon.
    Good point. Thor was created, by Stan Lee's own admission, to be their equivalent to Superman. But he was set up with a fellow god as his main opponent, a god of trickery and illusion and esoteric powers as opposed to Thor's very physical powers. It was in a realm of gods where he often faced cosmic threats or super villains given powers by gods or space-faring adventures where he could cut loose while trouncing many ordinary super villains.

    Meanwhile, quite right that Superman is locked into a very formulaic setting of Metropolis and a bald villain who survives on Superman's graces.
    Power with Girl is better.

  3. #18
    Fantastic Member ERON's Avatar
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    Why does every story have to be about Superman facing increasingly bigger threats? To me, that's a sign of limited creativity. If a writer can't think of interesting Superman stories that don't involve reducing his powers, that's on the writer, not the character. There are so many other kinds of stories you can tell. Write stories about Superman struggling to balance being a superhero and having a normal life. Write stories where Superman faces difficult moral dilemmas. Write slice of life stories about Superman and his supporting cast. Write stories about ordinary people who have their lives changed after meeting or being saved by Superman. More power doesn't have to mean less interesting either.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Good point. Thor was created, by Stan Lee's own admission, to be their equivalent to Superman. But he was set up with a fellow god as his main opponent, a god of trickery and illusion and esoteric powers as opposed to Thor's very physical powers. It was in a realm of gods where he often faced cosmic threats or super villains given powers by gods or space-faring adventures where he could cut loose while trouncing many ordinary super villains.

    Meanwhile, quite right that Superman is locked into a very formulaic setting of Metropolis and a bald villain who survives on Superman's graces.
    Actually Thor has a lot of "weak" villains: Absorbing Man, Mr. Hyde, the Wrecking Crew...

    It's just that his godly antagonists are more popular.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERON View Post
    Why does every story have to be about Superman facing increasingly bigger threats? To me, that's a sign of limited creativity. If a writer can't think of interesting Superman stories that don't involve reducing his powers, that's on the writer, not the character. There are so many other kinds of stories you can tell. Write stories about Superman struggling to balance being a superhero and having a normal life. Write stories where Superman faces difficult moral dilemmas. Write slice of life stories about Superman and his supporting cast. Write stories about ordinary people who have their lives changed after meeting or being saved by Superman. More power doesn't have to mean less interesting either.
    I have nothing against those kind of stories, but honestly, I just don't want to see every adventure end with Superman having to talk someone down of doing something or inspiring someone into doing something. Almost every run, movie or adaptation seem to be more concerned in defining what Superman means or stands for, instead of telling stories about Superman adventures they tell stories about what Superman is suppose to represent.

  6. #21
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    Writing good conflicts is the bigger issue; arguably. One of the reasons Lex has remained the primary antagonist is because enough writers have used their imagination make him both a physically-unimposing-yet-mentally-challenging villain sometimes, and a solar-system-scale physical threat at other times.

    Make it a story about Clark trying to save an innocent man from execution or prove Alex is behind something, and you’ve got a story any power level can be used for. Make it a purely physical story, but one thatks well written, and any power level can be used for it.

    Just don’t get lazy woth the conflicts.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Writing good conflicts is the bigger issue; arguably. One of the reasons Lex has remained the primary antagonist is because enough writers have used their imagination make him both a physically-unimposing-yet-mentally-challenging villain sometimes, and a solar-system-scale physical threat at other times.

    Make it a story about Clark trying to save an innocent man from execution or prove Alex is behind something, and you’ve got a story any power level can be used for. Make it a purely physical story, but one thatks well written, and any power level can be used for it.

    Just don’t get lazy woth the conflicts.
    As someone once put it(probably paraphrased): A villain must be a threat to the hero. But that doesn't need to be a direct personal physical threat. It can be a threat to innocent bystanders or someone or something else the hero cares about.

    It's like with Toyman. Toyman is a threat that Superman needs to stop. But Superman isn't protecting himself. He's focused on protecting others.

  8. #23
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    If Superman's power level was the problem his most interesting, beloved and enduring villain wouldn't be Lex Luthor.

    Power level isn't particularly important so long as motivations are compelling and the overall narrative satisfying. They had New 52 Superman pressing, what, five planets on a machine and it didn't make him any more or less popular. Superman Smashes the Klan had a comparatively weak Superman and is beloved. It's not all that important.

  9. #24
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    The higher the power levels, the harder it is for them to matter. Past a certain level, Success of any given act is determined by author fiat rather than anything tangible to the audience.

  10. #25
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    But less power don't make for interesting stories either !! An example of that is the truth arc from the new 52. I thought the Arc was just plain awful!!! As least for me every time they have depowered superman the stories have been awful. Superman is not Superman unless he has all his powers!!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 05-12-2021 at 02:46 AM.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Do we ever get threads about the need to make Flash slower? Or Batman less omni-competent? Or Green Lantern less powerful?

    I suppose we do...but I seem to come across a hundred “de-power Superman” threads for every one of them.

    In last 30 years the powering up of other heroes (and removal of any weakness) has been relentless...if Superman needs to be “dialled down” it really needs to be part of a wider DC powering down.

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member ERON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    I have nothing against those kind of stories, but honestly, I just don't want to see every adventure end with Superman having to talk someone down of doing something or inspiring someone into doing something. Almost every run, movie or adaptation seem to be more concerned in defining what Superman means or stands for, instead of telling stories about Superman adventures they tell stories about what Superman is suppose to represent.
    Oh, I agree totally. I want to see stories about Superman as a character, not Superman as a symbol or icon. The point I was trying to make was that it seems to me that the people who complain about Superman being too powerful are only thinking in terms of stories where the hero faces an overwhelming physical threat, when there are so many other kinds of stories you can tell with a powerful character like Superman.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    But less power don't make for interesting stories either !! An example of that is the truth arc from the new 52. I thought the Arc was just plain awful!!! As least for me every time they have depowered superman the stories have been awful. Superman is not Superman unless he has all his powers!!!
    So what? The fact that you can still tell bad stories with a lesser powered Superman doesn't get rid of the problems that overpowered Superman brings to the table.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    So what? The fact that you can still tell bad stories with a lesser powered Superman doesn't get rid of the problems that overpowered Superman brings to the table.
    Over-powered compared to what?

    I think one of DC’s weak points (as a story telling universe) is the apparent belief that it has to be possible to tell every sort of story with every character....that Batman can somehow go toe to toe with Darkseid one day, then struggle against the Penguin another day...

    In Superman’s case....it is possible to tell a wide range of stories even accepting his high power levels (partly because of his weaknesses, but also because his morality often forces self imposed restraints on him.)

    But it’s really not necessary to use him in stories better suited to low or medium powered characters.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Over-powered compared to what?

    I think one of DC’s weak points (as a story telling universe) is the apparent belief that it has to be possible to tell every sort of story with every character....that Batman can somehow go toe to toe with Darkseid one day, then struggle against the Penguin another day...

    In Superman’s case....it is possible to tell a wide range of stories even accepting his high power levels (partly because of his weaknesses, but also because his morality often forces self imposed restraints on him.)

    But it’s really not necessary to use him in stories better suited to low or medium powered characters.
    There are more stories that are taken off the table by Planet busting Superman than put on it.

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