Fantastic Four #32: Bride of Doom Part 1 - Rule of Engagement with SPOILERS

[Cataphract]

Alas I’m stubbornly Pro Lyja, though largely because I got into Marvel through MC2 so Defalco’s Fantastic Five...

[Iron Maiden]

If stories that happened need to be accepted, then this latest story also needs to be accepted. You're certainly free to call this negative character development and bad writing, but I'm going to refer to previous feelings of Lyja as bad writing in order to fit a writer's pet character into a role. Lyja did do a very bad thing and the people she hurt are longer forgiving her for it when she's not showing any growth as a character herself.. Seems like a perfectly acceptable response to me.

The FF have long ago forgiven Medusa for being a part of the Frightful Four haven't they?

[Kurolegacy]

If stories that happened need to be accepted, then this latest story also needs to be accepted. You're certainly free to call this negative character development and bad writing, but I'm going to refer to previous feelings of Lyja as bad writing in order to fit a writer's pet character into a role. Lyja did do a very bad thing and the people she hurt are longer forgiving her for it when she's not showing any growth as a character herself.. Seems like a perfectly acceptable response to me.

Difference there is that there is story written around the fact that she was forgiven, whether you may like it or not. In this case, there isn’t so much as an explanation for them suddenly harking on her as if none of the previous developments happened. To just jump from the established relationship of characters simply to this simply to fit into the mold of what Slott is doing in this story is both bad and lazy writing. It reeks of a writer not bitching to do their homework before writing a character.

[CaptCleghorn]

The FF have long forgive Medusa for being a part of the Frightful Four haven't they?

They have. In fact, there are many former foes the FF have gotten on better terms with. But there have also been decades of stories supporting Medusa as an ally and friend of the team.

Also, there was the retcon of Medusa not remembering her past when she fought with the Frightful Four. This explanation works better than "she was forced to" which is used for Lyja. I can certainly accept Lyja being exonerated but she's been written in shades of grey, even during her purer exploits. And my problem is less with Lyja than with Ben, Johnny, and Alicia not only being cool with her, but being enamored of her. Johnny, I get, as he thinks with his little head. But seriously, Ben had an interest in the woman who disguised herself as his blind ex-girlfriend and married his friend and teammate?

[CaptCleghorn]

Difference there is that there is story written around the fact that she was forgiven, whether you may like it or not. In this case, there isn’t so much as an explanation for them suddenly harking on her as if none of the previous developments happened. To just jump from the established relationship of characters simply to this simply to fit into the mold of what Slott is doing in this story is both bad and lazy writing. It reeks of a writer not bitching to do their homework before writing a character.

Looking at the DeFalco days and today's FF, there are big differences in how the characters are positioned in their lives. Even IF the forgiveness is accepted, Ben and Alicia are married with kids. Does a family want the woman who impersonated Mom to hang around now that they've found a happier place? Nicki's also brought back memories Alicia had of her hostage time. If Mom ain't happy, ain't no one happy. At best, Lyja's the crazy buddy we had growing up who hasn't grown up themselves and we realize there's no longer a place in our lives for them despite our coming to terms with them.

Johnny hasn't grown. He still wants to be with any woman he sees and Lyja's a good example of that. Also, see Alicia (Ben's ex) back in Byrne days, Medusa (Crystal's sister) with the Avengers, and Victorious in this very issue. Sky was his first choice, Victorious was his number two and being kept warm with flirting. Had Victorious not worked out and Lyja not been made to leave, I expect he may have spent the night with her.

[CyberCoyote]

Looking at the DeFalco days and today's FF, there are big differences in how the characters are positioned in their lives. Even IF the forgiveness is accepted, Ben and Alicia are married with kids. Does a family want the woman who impersonated Mom to hang around now that they've found a happier place? Nicki's also brought back memories Alicia had of her hostage time. If Mom ain't happy, ain't no one happy. At best, Lyja's the crazy buddy we had growing up who hasn't grown up themselves and we realize there's no longer a place in our lives for them despite our coming to terms with them.

I did go back and reread the interactions between Johnny and Lyja in Secret Invasion. SHE had moved on, it seemed, so her coming onto him here seems a bit off.

As far as forgiveness, The FF continually let Doom back into their lives, someone who's tried to murder them, tortured them, possess their child, and all types of other horrible things. So they seem pretty maleable when it comes to holding grudges.

Agree Johnny hasn't grown, in this book. Really wish he would. Maybe that's the giant change coming up. He actually becomes an adult after 60 years.

[CaptCleghorn]

I did go back and reread the interactions between Johnny and Lyja in Secret Invasion. SHE had moved on, it seemed, so her coming onto him here seems a bit off.

As far as forgiveness, The FF continually let Doom back into their lives, someone who's tried to murder them, tortured them, possess their child, and all types of other horrible things. So they seem pretty maleable when it comes to holding grudges.

Agree Johnny hasn't grown, in this book. Really wish he would. Maybe that's the giant change coming up. He actually becomes an adult after 60 years.

Doom's an example which needs to be addressed. Since FF Annual 2 (1964), Reed and Doom have been connected and have a long backstory. Doom's also had considerable story putting him in a more admirable state. The idea is there is hope for Victor as MOST writers support. As horrible as many of Doom's actions have been, he did deliver Reed and Sue's daughter AND started the process that led to the saving of the multiverse in Secret Wars. And yes, I do agree the FF's choices can be puzzling.

[cmore]

I do accept that, after Johnny (or maybe even more so), Alicia would bear the biggest animosity towards Lyja for taking her life away from her, so in her own mind a little bit of mental manipulation is justified. Still, it makes me very uncomfortable that she is seemingly going down a dark path. Probably Slott wants to avoid Alicia being too perfect and added this to show us her dark side.

One thing that's changed is that this is no longer just about her and Johnny. At the end of this scene she says "Family always comes first", and she's never had a real family until now. Becoming a parent can change people. She now has chidren to care about and protect. She knows Lyja's presence upsets her kids, especially her daughter. That protectiveness may have pushed her to do something that she wouldn't ordinarily do.

[Oberon]

I suppose that it the one 'clue' to the nay 'family comes first'.

But has anyone thought that, that is not really Alicia, especially as we say someone imitate her very well, earlier.

What if that is the child and not Alicia? So bam, on the bait and switch. Alicia wouldn't do this to Lyja, but that kid might....

[Oberon]

I just posted to the wedding thread, but I've the feeling that

Alicia is not - it's the kid, doing that to Lyja.

Remember I asked about Skrulls and hypnosis?

And also, does this clay even work on Alien minds?

But if a Skrull used it on a Skrull? Hmmm?

And I know someone can't or won't accept it, but the reason why comics are like soap operas, is because you do have to accept the story or arc, that characters do change.

Various evil doers on soaps become heroes. Sometimes they become villains again.

But sometimes good people become evil too. It really is a convention that exists and is a primary way of telling stories. Even these kind.

Lyja is far more interesting as a flawed character who may become good again.

Isn't that what Dr. Doom is about, in spades?

[CaptCleghorn]

I just posted to the wedding thread, but I've the feeling that

Alicia is not - it's the kid, doing that to Lyja.

Remember I asked about Skrulls and hypnosis?

And also, does this clay even work on Alien minds?

But if a Skrull used it on a Skrull? Hmmm?

And I know someone can't or won't accept it, but the reason why comics are like soap operas, is because you do have to accept the story or arc, that characters do change.

Various evil doers on soaps become heroes. Sometimes they become villains again.

But sometimes good people become evil too. It really is a convention that exists and is a primary way of telling stories. Even these kind.

Lyja is far more interesting as a flawed character who may become good again.

Isn't that what Dr. Doom is about, in spades?

I'm not so sure Nicki's behind this. I mean, it's possible, but the only hypnosis from Skrulls I know of is that with the Super Skrull. And Alicia had already used the clay on her father before the kids were introduced. About the only point I can come up with to support this is the Ben murderous anger at reed and that could be the result of action against ben's kids, even for a good reson.

I don't remember the Puppet Master's clay ever being used on a non-human before, but I'm inclined to think it's certainly possible.

[CyberCoyote]

I suppose that it the one 'clue' to the nay 'family comes first'.

But has anyone thought that, that is not really Alicia, especially as we say someone imitate her very well, earlier.

What if that is the child and not Alicia? So bam, on the bait and switch. Alicia wouldn't do this to Lyja, but that kid might....

Someone pointed out that Alicia pulled this stunt on her own step-Dad when Ben went to ask for her hand, but this is a good point, too. A certain Skrull made it a point to note how her sculpting abilities are NOT something she needs to be taught.

[Crimz]

Lyja is a piece of trash and Alicia still hating her makes total sense. She never forgave her and she has every right not to. The FF forgiving her is out of character after she sexually assaulted Johnny and she was going to do it again this issue. She's a rapist.

[Jwyatt]

Did Sue watch the whole thing go down? is what I would like to know.

Well, we know Sue likes to watch...


"Oh my stars!"

[Triniking1234]

For the kids to be behind this, yes, they would have to know about Puppet Master and his clay but then again that can be introduced retroactively.

Lyja is a piece of trash and Alicia still hating her makes total sense. Sue never forgave her and she has every right not to. The FF forgiving her is out of character after she sexually assaulted Johnny and she was going to do it again this issue. She's a rapist.

This part doesn't make sense since the FF are shown to be TOO sympathetic to their villains. Especially since they had Lyja living with them before Heroes Reborn.