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  1. #106
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    I liked Snake Eyes as a newfangled American Ninja movie and wondered if Golding Snake Eyes and Akiko spoilers:
    could have become an item
    end of spoilers. I don't know if the fantastical and anti-terrorism stuff meshed well enough with all that because G.I. Joe lore isn't my thing at all. But Weaving Scarlett was a joy to watch and Baroness wasn't far behind.

  2. #107
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Thanks for the comments bro. Yeah, very interesting ideas here.
    Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    I got the same vibe as you did. spoilers:
    For a couple of moments in the movie, I thought that there was something going on between Snake Eyes and Akiko. In one sense, I thought it was Akiko and Snake Eyes building a mutual trust. But yeah, it felt something more. Don't know where that will go in the future, if at all.
    end of spoilers
    [spoil]Haruka Abe has gone on record that she'd be willing to come back for another film, so, they could do more with the characters' relationship (whatever it's supposed to be) if the writers were onboard. So far, it seems like they're waiting and seeing if they can make a sequel before planning too much ahead (and the box office hasn't been promising).

    [QUOTE=Tien Long;5650085]spoilers:
    Tell you what, I'm thinking that the film is building something between Scarlett and Baroness . Though I'm all for the Snake Eyes/Scarlett pairing, I could see the movie franchise taking a creative detour and building something between those two. There's an implied past relationship there that was rekindled during the fight together. Maybe it's supposed to be sibling-esque like between Snake and Storm. Maybe something more though!
    end of spoilers

    spoilers:
    Didn't think of that (although Baroness seemed to act coy with everyone whenever she had the upper hand). The actors have stated in interviews that their characters were supposed to be former friends (and that they got along real well ILR). The characters' interactions in the film did remind me a bit of Raya and Namaari from Raya and the Last Dragon, which Kelly Marie Tran went on record that she tried very hard to perform the scenes with the idea that there was some romantic attraction underscoring everything (don't think Gemma Chan commented one way or the other about it, but her stuff does seem to fit), so I can certainly see the same for Scarlett and Baroness.

    Not sure what fans who're pretty entrenched in the previous lore would think, but I'd be onboard with the idea of Baroness and Scarlett being star-crossed lovers. I'm pretty skeptical it'll happen (fandom seems to get mad whenever you're less than slavish to the franchise lore and studios seem pretty wary of LGBTQ representation for a variety of reasons), but I could the story potential in it. I guess my only question would be if we'd want to give Baroness any level of humanity or redeeming traits instead of playing her as a flat "love-to-hate" villain? (Never saw the original movie, but understood in that one, Baroness was an innocent victim who had been brainwashed into being a Cobra agent, something that I gathered fans hated, although I actually thought it sounded like it could be an interesting twist on paper.)

    Going with the classic of Snake Eyes and Scarlett could work if the writing does it well, but seeing how they've had little interaction so far, seems like there would need to be a lot of heavy lifting to set it up. If so, I'd hope that the writing takes time to develop it and not just throw them together because of tradition (like how in the X-Men movies, the Wolverine/Jean/Cyclops love triangle was just there because that's how the comics were without actually setting it up in the story). Still think that Akiko would make for a more interesting dynamic; she wound up seeing Snake Eyes at his worst and still was willing to give him a second chance in the end. There's a lot you could do with that. Course, I did find it interesting how she started out as the one who thought Snake Eyes didn't belong and Storm Shadow was the one who was firm friends with him, and then that inverted itself as the story went along.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Good explanation there. And I'm glad that you saw my point.
    Thanks. Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Still spoilers:
    am I against Storm? Do I think he's making the wrong call here? In some respects yes. Yes, he went against the clan's rules. But I feel he was driven to that particular moment. The guy was dealing with that betrayal beforehand. He placed his trust in a figure, an outsider, who he thought would bring the Arashikage into a brighter, better future. He gave into rage sure, but it was against this enemy who was going to straight up murder the clan. Would he have been able to commit penance for that? The clan mother's response was pretty clear cut that Tommy wouldn't lead. So, yes, I feel Storm was in the more in the right for his decision.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Suppose it could be partially different culture and values. Would guess that most Western cultures would probably agree that it was special circumstances, while the clan seemed to have a really strict set of rules and low toleration for dissent. Guess they could've gone more into the reasons (like Storm Shadow using it one "showing" that he would be liable to use it again in the future, which could not be risked, or what have you). I guess the whole question r.e. repentance and penance wasn't exactly literal, but more of the idea that his unwillingness to take responsibility for his decisions not helping his case, if that makes any sense. Have seen some commentary online that, if you pay attention, Storm Shadow's obsession with taking down Kenta escalates over the course of the film, which could paint his trying to use the stone on him in the end showing that he's willing to betray his code and/or oaths to get what he wants. (Also interesting, but during his and Snake Eyes initial escape, he stops to sword duel a group of enemies he could've just avoided by ducking out the door right away. It's kinda played for laughs, but, in retrospect, there's something dark about him going out of his way to kill enemies seemingly just for the sake of doing it.)

    Like I indicated before, I think the cleverness in the writing is that you can both see the perspective that Storm Shadow was dealt with harshly and has legitimate grievances, but that he had crossed the line and was unwilling to own up to it.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Still spoilers:
    I don't think that his alliance with Cobra is based off of shared ideology. He just wants them to help him get back at Snake.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Suppose that would be for the hypothetical sequel to explore. Would hope they give him an interesting story out of it instead of just making him an unquestioning Cobra minion because power and all that. Would agree that I thought it was less of "hey, I want to be a terrorist, too" and more of "I was born to lead a clan; these people can give me what my family stole from me."
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    spoilers:
    As for Snake Eyes, I could see him making things right. He helped out at the end. But, the clan mother, or Blind or Hard Master don't give him a brow beating? Don't have harsh words for what he did? Don't tell him what he can do for recompense? That gets me.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Guess I saw it as the movie choosing to focus on Storm Shadow's fall from grace, since we can arguably infer Snake Eyes's status from the context, whether or not there was any kind of lecture or not. Suppose one could argue that his passing the third test when he got Kenta into the snake den may have gone a long way in terms of them deciding to show him grace. Also seeing how basically the first thing he decides to do is to go and help bring Storm Shadow back into the fold, that may have been enough for him. Can see the point that he might seem to get off too easy, but I guess it didn't bother me that much.
    end of spoilers


    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Were those characters made compelling? There was enough given, but there could have been more? I think so. The chemistry between those two characters was there though. I'd like to see more of that in the future.
    Sure, I get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    A quick question: could Blind Master and Hard Master be considered "outsiders"? If they were, then how did they become part of the clan? They aren't Japanese. How could they have been part of the Arashikage?
    Didn't notice Hard Master (guy in the first test?) seeing out of place. Did wonder about Blind Master. Suppose he could've been born and raised in Japan, thus not being an outsider like the American Snake Eyes?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  3. #108
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    I never expected Snake Eyes to be a big breakout hit. But given it's extremely modest budget (88M), I thought it would still be a decent money maker.

    However with a 13M opening, does it kill the entire reboot universe?

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    I never expected Snake Eyes to be a big breakout hit. But given it's extremely modest budget (88M), I thought it would still be a decent money maker.

    However with a 13M opening, does it kill the entire reboot universe?
    I blame the poor showing on the critics review bombing it Now that I got that out of my system they might as well go all in and introduce Serpentor for the last film.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  5. #110
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    I'm just going to throw this out there and see what y'all think:

    Is it possible the whole GI Joe franchise just suffers from the fact that it's based on a razor-thin premise? At its core, it's just "GI Joe protects the world against the evil terrorists Cobra." There have been interesting individual stories in the comics in its serialized form, but even the most popular character only has a couple more layers than the others and the rest is just how cool the idea of a ninja/commando is. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to create a deeper mythology or meaning to the franchise to captivate audiences.

  6. #111
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    Saw this tonight and was underwhelmed. The action scenes should have been the selling point but alot of them were hard to follow. I like Golding enough to watch a sequel but the box office probably ensured that's not gonna happen.

    Also didn't love story. I mean I ended up feeling like everything was the heros fault by the end. Think the point was these characters true colors were shown by the end. But yea naw I'm just feeling like it's all SnakeEyes fault.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I'm just going to throw this out there and see what y'all think:

    Is it possible the whole GI Joe franchise just suffers from the fact that it's based on a razor-thin premise? At its core, it's just "GI Joe protects the world against the evil terrorists Cobra." There have been interesting individual stories in the comics in its serialized form, but even the most popular character only has a couple more layers than the others and the rest is just how cool the idea of a ninja/commando is. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to create a deeper mythology or meaning to the franchise to captivate audiences.
    I really feel like it's not that hard to deliver on G.I. Joe's premise unless it's hard for a modern audience to buy into a military/special forces narrative (although I feel like the MCU has leaned into that enough to where they wouldn't), it's all just in the execution.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    The property is just S.H.I.E.L.D on steroids without the superheroes with Cobra being Hydra on steroids. The problem is it never goes far enough. It's the kind of property that you have to commit to one hundred percent or it won't work.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I'm just going to throw this out there and see what y'all think:

    Is it possible the whole GI Joe franchise just suffers from the fact that it's based on a razor-thin premise? At its core, it's just "GI Joe protects the world against the evil terrorists Cobra." There have been interesting individual stories in the comics in its serialized form, but even the most popular character only has a couple more layers than the others and the rest is just how cool the idea of a ninja/commando is. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to create a deeper mythology or meaning to the franchise to captivate audiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I really feel like it's not that hard to deliver on G.I. Joe's premise unless it's hard for a modern audience to buy into a military/special forces narrative (although I feel like the MCU has leaned into that enough to where they wouldn't), it's all just in the execution.
    I think there’s a kind fo tug-o-war with the premise; if you don’t want to do any commentary on politics, cults, and culture with GIJoe, than it’s an action figure/cartoon premise - but if you want to go deeper and more serious, than you have to at least play around with politics, cults, and culture.

    And that means trying to nail down something for Cobra beyond just “take over the world” goals. The old Marvel comic by Larry Hama played with Cobra Commander being an ex-car salesman, conman, and pyramid scheme operator who’d definitely leaned into a cult of personality even before Serpentor showed up. Cobra’s HQ was a seemingly-ubiquitous slice of suburbia called Springfield with some Stepford aspects. The “politics” of Cobra high command were integral to the plot. G.I. Joe Renegades made Cobra a secret society that infiltrated the government.

    You need to be able to do something more than just “Cobra = Bad.” You need to explain how Cobra operates and what their ethos is, or at least hint at it.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 07-28-2021 at 09:13 AM.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  10. #115
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think there’s a kind fo tug-o-war with the premise; if you don’t want to do any commentary on politics, cults, and culture with GIJoe, than it’s an action figure/cartoon premise - but if you want to go deeper and more serious, than you have to at least play around with politics, cults, and culture.

    And that means trying to nail down something for Cobra beyond just “take over the world” goals. The old Marvel comic by Larry Hama played with Cobra Commander being an ex-car salesman, conman, and pyramid scheme operator who’d definitely leaned into a cult of personality even before Serpentor showed up. Cobra’s HQ was a seemingly-ubiquitous slice of suburbia called Springfield with some Stepford aspects. The “politics” of Cobra high command were integral to the plot. G.I. Joe Renegades made Cobra a secret society that infiltrated the government.

    You need to be able to do something more than just “Cobra = Bad.” You need to explain how Cobra operates and what their ethos is, or at least hint at it.
    I don't think Cobra needs to be super deep per se, but they probably need to be more memorable than they come off in the movies. I thought they handled Cobra fine in Retaliation.

  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I'm just going to throw this out there and see what y'all think:

    Is it possible the whole GI Joe franchise just suffers from the fact that it's based on a razor-thin premise? At its core, it's just "GI Joe protects the world against the evil terrorists Cobra." There have been interesting individual stories in the comics in its serialized form, but even the most popular character only has a couple more layers than the others and the rest is just how cool the idea of a ninja/commando is. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to create a deeper mythology or meaning to the franchise to captivate audiences.
    I definitely feel that they have to find something a little deeper in the premise to justify a resurrection of the franchise. In particular I'm not convinced that the property can be aged up with its audience without sacrificing whatever it is that made it originally work, as I think it being paramilitary action for kids was what the main point was.

    Which is part of why I think Snake Eyes worked (for me, at least), it was just the story of a guy trying to infiltrate a semi-mystical ninja foundation and in doing so driving out the nominal head of the organization and beyond that specifically Joe storyline the whole background was "there is a good governmental organization fighting an evil crime syndicate" with occassional fight scenes in the bathroom between characters we've never seen before (in the movie)

  12. #117
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Who knows if the Snake-Eyes movie will lead to a successful reboot, but maybe the franchise should lean into what made the original interesting to kids - the Pokemon-like differentiation of characters with their own quirky look and skillset. Isn't that what was interesting in the first place? They each had fun call-signs and specific skills and fun costumes. The blend of colorful adventure with the feel of genuine military operations was fun! Larry Hama knew weapons, which grounded the comic book, but we still had Zartan, who could change his face, and ninjas and robots, etc. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to really find the right blend to maximize the fun potential of the franchise.

  13. #118
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Who knows if the Snake-Eyes movie will lead to a successful reboot, but maybe the franchise should lean into what made the original interesting to kids - the Pokemon-like differentiation of characters with their own quirky look and skillset. Isn't that what was interesting in the first place? They each had fun call-signs and specific skills and fun costumes. The blend of colorful adventure with the feel of genuine military operations was fun! Larry Hama knew weapons, which grounded the comic book, but we still had Zartan, who could change his face, and ninjas and robots, etc. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to really find the right blend to maximize the fun potential of the franchise.
    And yet the first live-action movie gave us such drab, black, combat suits...

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Who knows if the Snake-Eyes movie will lead to a successful reboot, but maybe the franchise should lean into what made the original interesting to kids - the Pokemon-like differentiation of characters with their own quirky look and skillset. Isn't that what was interesting in the first place? They each had fun call-signs and specific skills and fun costumes. The blend of colorful adventure with the feel of genuine military operations was fun! Larry Hama knew weapons, which grounded the comic book, but we still had Zartan, who could change his face, and ninjas and robots, etc. I don't know that any of the movies have been able to really find the right blend to maximize the fun potential of the franchise.
    "America's most elite fighting force with its most lax dress code" as (IIRC) Robot Chicken described it

  15. #120
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And yet the first live-action movie gave us such drab, black, combat suits...
    You remember their mundane combat suits? For the life of me all I can remember are those weird ass exo power suits they wore in France...

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