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  1. #1
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    Default Gandalf the white vs Dumbledore

    Who’d win

    Gandalf the white vs Dumbledore

    If Dumbledore wins then he fights Gandalf in his true form

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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    By ‘true form’ are you referring to Olórin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    By ‘true form’ are you referring to Olórin?
    If that’s who he was before he was Gandalf then yes

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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mider2009 View Post
    If that’s who he was before he was Gandalf then yes
    Well, THAT particular fight is either a stomp or ‘we don’t have feats for Olórin.’ I go with stomp, myself.

    Going by comparison with other Maiar and presentation, Olórin crushes Dumbledore. Unless I’m missing some feats that put Dumbledore waaaaaay outside the HP power curve.
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    I think Gandalf and the wizards by feats could counter anything Dumbledore can throw, but Dumbledore has an edge on speed and teleportation

  7. #7
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Against Istari Gandalf, I'd back Dumbledore. He has too many instant fight-enders and way too many mobility and stealth options. He can go invisible without a cloak (feats and presentation in the first book), he can teleport with a thought, he can mind-whammy, he can transmute into a teacup, he can make float then smash around, and launch into orbit or whatever, he can accio the staff, he can soul rip (no feats, but c'mon, he definitely knows Avada Kedavra.). None of this takes build up, all of it can work at range.

    Against Olorin, yeah, an actual Maiar kinda breaks the power curve of HP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Against Istari Gandalf, I'd back Dumbledore. He has too many instant fight-enders and way too many mobility and stealth options. He can go invisible without a cloak (feats and presentation in the first book), he can teleport with a thought, he can mind-whammy, he can transmute into a teacup, he can make float then smash around, and launch into orbit or whatever, he can accio the staff, he can soul rip (no feats, but c'mon, he definitely knows Avada Kedavra.). None of this takes build up, all of it can work at range.

    Against Olorin, yeah, an actual Maiar kinda breaks the power curve of HP.
    I think Gandalf can read minds and thus deduce where Dumbledore is if he was to go invisible.

    Mind whammy, both Sauron and Sauruman can mind whammy or rather mind control, in LOTR trilogy they controlled their armies via mind control, All three are of the same race and Gandalf is more powerful then Sauruman by two towers.

    In LOTR fellowship it was implied Gandalf can transmute

    I doubt he can just take the staff, Sauruman in the hobbit was fighting off the wringwraiths and Gandalf was holding off a balrog and Sauron with his for a time.

    Idk what a soul rip is, but I do know Sauruman possessed the king in two towers and Sauron could control spirits and put them into werewolves.

    Also Gandalf in his grey form fraught n killed a balrog after fighting for several days, he also drove off the Nazgul as the white with his staff.

    Also in LOTR Sauruman was summoning storms and taking out the side of a mountain

  9. #9
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Are we using movie canon or book canon for these fights? Because unless specified, it's primary canon, which is books for both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mider2009 View Post
    I think Gandalf can read minds and thus deduce where Dumbledore is if he was to go invisible.

    Mind whammy, both Sauron and Sauruman can mind whammy or rather mind control, in LOTR trilogy they controlled their armies via mind control, All three are of the same race and Gandalf is more powerful then Sauruman by two towers.
    A few points - Saruman controlling his armies by mind control is a little iffy; it's not shown anywhere in the books. Saruman's big method of control was with his empowered Voice.

    Sauron most certainly controlled his armies mentally. However...

    Saruman and Gandalf are no longer 'the same race' as Sauron. They are Maiar who have been stuffed into a mortal body and are subject to its limitations - Istari. Their powers are lessened. They can die. They age. They can become tired. They require food and water. Etc.

    Also, if Gandalf was going to use a mental attack we'd need to have feats for him doing so. He doesn't have those kinds of feats.

    In LOTR fellowship it was implied Gandalf can transmute
    We'd need to see feats for it, and if it works on a living body. When did that happen?

    I doubt he can just take the staff, Sauruman in the hobbit was fighting off the wringwraiths
    That's the movie, not books - if we're using movie canon, that changes things (also, I leave the thread, barf ).

    and Gandalf was holding off a balrog and Sauron with his for a time.
    Book Gandalf certainly fought a balrog. And won. Though he didn't create any magical force field with his staff in the books.

    Book Gandalf (the Grey) versus Sauron in Dol Guldur, we don't have anything more than 'Found out Sauron was the Necromancer and ran for his life.'

    Idk what a soul rip is, but I do know Sauruman possessed the king in two towers
    Again, movie canon. Nothing of the sort happens in the books.

    and Sauron could control spirits and put them into werewolves.
    Which is a feat for Sauron, not Gandalf.

    Also Gandalf in his grey form fraught n killed a balrog after fighting for several days, he also drove off the Nazgul as the white with his staff.
    He actually (book Canon) fought the Balrog and killed it after a battle that lasted ten days that wreathed the top of a mountain with a storm of fire and lightning. A battle that also involved running up stairs from the bottom of a mountain to the top after falling a good length of that distance and splatting into water. And after the fall, fighting underwater for a time.

    It's an impressive feat.

    Also in LOTR Sauruman was summoning storms and taking out the side of a mountain
    Book Canon, it's implied that Saruman might have been summoning storms. Said storms didn't take out the side of a mountain, though.

    Movie Canon, again something very different.

    I don't know who wins these fights - I don't read Harry Potter and don't know enough about Dumbledore (other than that he's not taking Olórin). I'm just here to correct some stuff about LotR.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 11:11 AM.
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  10. #10
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    I mean, if we're going by book-Gandalf, he should have zero problem either busting Dumbledore's wand or whipping it out of his hand - it's something he does on more than one occasion (Gimli's axe, Saruman's staff) without any build-up or anything, just 'wave staff' or 'point' and boom, done.

    One could argue that it's a good starting strategy.

    However, I understand Dumbledore has feats for using magic without a wand, so there's that as well. ^_^
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Are we using movie canon or book canon for these fights? Because unless specified, it's primary canon, which is books for both.



    A few points - Saruman controlling his armies by mind control is a little iffy; it's not shown anywhere in the books. Saruman's big method of control was with his empowered Voice.

    Sauron most certainly controlled his armies mentally. However...

    Saruman and Gandalf are no longer 'the same race' as Sauron. They are Maiar who have been stuffed into a mortal body and are subject to its limitations - Istari. Their powers are lessened. They can die. They age. They can become tired. They require food and water. Etc.

    Also, if Gandalf was going to use a mental attack we'd need to have feats for him doing so. He doesn't have those kinds of feats.



    We'd need to see feats for it, and if it works on a living body. When did that happen?



    That's the movie, not books - if we're using movie canon, that changes things (also, I leave the thread, barf ).



    Book Gandalf certainly fought a balrog. And won. Though he didn't create any magical force field with his staff in the books.

    Book Gandalf (the Grey) versus Sauron in Dol Guldur, we don't have anything more than 'Found out Sauron was the Necromancer and ran for his life.'



    Again, movie canon. Nothing of the sort happens in the books.



    Which is a feat for Sauron, not Gandalf.



    He actually (book Canon) fought the Balrog and killed it after a battle that lasted ten days that wreathed the top of a mountain with a storm of fire and lightning. A battle that also involved running up stairs from the bottom of a mountain to the top after falling a good length of that distance and splatting into water. And after the fall, fighting underwater for a time.

    It's an impressive feat.



    Book Canon, it's implied that Saruman might have been summoning storms. Said storms didn't take out the side of a mountain, though.

    Movie Canon, again something very different.

    I don't know who wins these fights - I don't read Harry Potter and don't know enough about Dumbledore (other than that he's not taking Olórin). I'm just here to correct some stuff about LotR.
    A composite of both

    By same race I mean what you said...they def aren’t just mortals and can’t really die. I believe they are all comparable in power.

    It’s implied, idk where you're getting we need to see feats? Not everything is on screen or on the pages for it to have happened

    The book doesn’t mention him fighting the wraiths or Sauron in the hobbit just that they beat him but used weapons or stuff Sauruman invented I believe...again both book n movie

    Again both books n movies bro...go make your own thread if you wanna nit pick

    Again they’re the same race

    Yes

    It’s implied indeed...again composit canon it’s allowed in these threads

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I mean, if we're going by book-Gandalf, he should have zero problem either busting Dumbledore's wand or whipping it out of his hand - it's something he does on more than one occasion (Gimli's axe, Saruman's staff) without any build-up or anything, just 'wave staff' or 'point' and boom, done.

    One could argue that it's a good starting strategy.

    However, I understand Dumbledore has feats for using magic without a wand, so there's that as well. ^_^
    I just don’t find his fears that impressive

  13. #13
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mider2009 View Post
    A composite of both
    Okay, that clears up some things. Thank you.

    By same race I mean what you said...they def aren’t just mortals and can’t really die. I believe they are all comparable in power.
    They aren't the same race ANY MORE. Gandalf is mortal, and does indeed die after the battle with the Balrog (and is sent back with less of his limitations by Ilúvatar). That's explicitly stated by Tolkien in his writings on 'The Istari'. The powers of the Istari have been limited. That's explicitly stated in Tolkien's own writings, again 'The Istari'.

    If you're arguing against that, you're arguing against Tolkien's own writing. Being helpful, I've quoted all of Tolkien's comments on the matter below.

    It’s implied, idk where you're getting we need to see feats? Not everything is on screen or on the pages for it to have happened
    Gandalf is never shown to use mental assaults or the like (neither is Saruman for that matter, outside of his Voice, which Gandalf doesn't show any signs of having), aside from sort-of hypnotizing Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn while talking peacefully with them (and there's no evidence that was an outright mental assault or the like). Nor transmutation. We don't simply give people powers. They have to be shown to use them.

    Feats are part of how Rumbles works. It's in the rules sticky.

    The book doesn’t mention him fighting the wraiths or Sauron in the hobbit just that they beat him but used weapons or stuff Sauruman invented I believe...again both book n movie
    The book states that the entire White Council went to fight 'the Necromancer', and he basically left without putting up a serious fight. Which was part of his plan.

    Again both books n movies bro...go make your own thread if you wanna nit pick
    You never stated this was both books or movies before now. Rumbles rules, if it's not specified it's primary canon. I'm not nit-picking, I'm following the rules based on what you had in the OP.

    If you want composite, great! Now you've stated it, we can work from there.

    Again they’re the same race
    Gandalf and Sauron are no longer the same race, as Gandalf has been effectively made mortal and had his powers limited.

    Gandalf does not have the same powers as Saruman, either. If we're arguing that, then we're arguing that Radagast has the same powers and such as well.

    It’s implied indeed...again composit canon it’s allowed in these threads
    Sure, and now that you've stated it's composite, people can work from that.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 12:16 PM.
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  14. #14
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Saving some time, I'll just post this now: Tolkien's own thoughts on the matter of the Istari, their mortality, their weaknesses, and their power levels comparative to each other.

    Directly quoted from The Istari, by J.R.R. Tolkien, Unfinished Tales (Harper Colilins Paperback, 1998, pages 502-520).

    "For with the consent of Eru, [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..." Page 503, emphasis mine. Note the part where Tolkien straight-up states they could be killed.

    "...forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open displays of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble..." Page 503, again.

    "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Page 508, emphasis mine.

    So, that covers the whole 'mortality, weakening' thing.

    As for all of the Istari being equal in power? Again, I turn to Tolkien's own writings (same source as above).

    "Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom." Page 510, emphasis mine.

    So no, all of the Istari were not equal and identical in power/powers.

    Heck, we know that the Maiar and Valar themselves are all different in powers and strength (again, Tolkien writes that right out for us in The Silmarillion, with a nice breakdown of the Valar from the strongest to weakest, and notations on their areas of power). So even if Gandalf the White is more powerful overall (sure), he doesn't automatically get all of Saruman's powers.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 01:23 PM.
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  15. #15
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    (eats popcorn)

    i'm just here for sharp's tolkien lore dumps.

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