Gandalf the white vs Dumbledore

[Mider2009]

Okay, that clears up some things. Thank you.



They aren't the same race ANY MORE. Gandalf is mortal, and does indeed die after the battle with the Balrog (and is sent back with less of his limitations by Ilúvatar). That's explicitly stated by Tolkien in his writings on 'The Istari'. The powers of the Istari have been limited. That's explicitly stated in Tolkien's own writings, again 'The Istari'.

If you're arguing against that, you're arguing against Tolkien's own writing. Being helpful, I've quoted all of Tolkien's comments on the matter below.



Gandalf is never shown to use mental assaults or the like (neither is Saruman for that matter, outside of his Voice, which Gandalf doesn't show any signs of having), aside from sort-of hypnotizing Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn while talking peacefully with them (and there's no evidence that was an outright mental assault or the like). Nor transmutation. We don't simply give people powers. They have to be shown to use them.

Feats are part of how Rumbles works. It's in the rules sticky.



The book states that the entire White Council went to fight 'the Necromancer', and he basically left without putting up a serious fight. Which was part of his plan.



You never stated this was both books or movies before now. Rumbles rules, if it's not specified it's primary canon. I'm not nit-picking, I'm following the rules based on what you had in the OP.

If you want composite, great! Now you've stated it, we can work from there.



Gandalf and Sauron are no longer the same race, as Gandalf has been effectively made mortal and had his powers limited.

Gandalf does not have the same powers as Saruman, either. If we're arguing that, then we're arguing that Radagast has the same powers and such as well.



Sure, and now that you've stated it's composite, people can work from that.

Yes you keep saying that...what’s this have to do with the rumble? Gandalf basically got stronger and IMO had more access to his divine power, Sauron as a spirit used the ring to make himself stronger.

No but Sauruman has n they’re both Wizards, they both communicated over miles, I also believe Gandalf could protect himself from Sauruman n Saurons mental attacks. So it’s used and used offensively

It’s an implied feet you just said he used it in three guys...

I don’t believe that’s what happened, he knew he couldn’t win, left, bid his time for 400 years, unless you’re saying he just left but took a 400 year break?

As far as I recall whoever owns the the movies owns the rights to the characters so yeah your nit picking

An implied feat is still a feat if the character can do it

How does that work? They aren’t even the same kind of wizard lol

Ok I’m done rep,hung to you this has nothing to do with the thread

[Mider2009]

Also as for weather control...it is implied Sauruman did it but more so Gandalf called down lightning to fight the balrog and he’s done the same in other Instances

Using fire wtf.

I haven’t seen anything that puts Dumbledore over Gandalf

[Sharpandpointies]

(eats popcorn)

i'm just here for sharp's tolkien lore dumps.

^_^

Yes you keep saying that...what’s this have to do with the rumble? Gandalf basically got stronger and IMO had more access to his divine power, Sauron as a spirit used the ring to make himself stronger.

Yes, I keep saying that because you keep saying that they 'are the same race'. They're not. Not any more. It's factually incorrect. As noted in the quotes from Tolkien himself, the wizards were placed in real, actual mortal bodies (that were now THEIR bodies), and limited, and could die. They have become mortals.

You are correct - Gandalf did get stronger when Ilúvatar raised him from the dead, because he was granted more access to his divine strength. He was still limited and mortal.

Sauron was a spirit, correct. He used the ring as a focus to enhance his power, yes. With or without it, he was still stronger than Gandalf the White (confirmed by Tolkien). Also, they don't have the same abilities.

No but Sauruman has n they’re both Wizards, they both communicated over miles, I also believe Gandalf could protect himself from Sauruman n Saurons mental attacks. So it’s used and used offensively

Gandalf never used it offensively. Where did it say Gandalf and Saruman communicated over miles (unless that's a movie thing - in the books, Saruman had to send Radagast as a messenger to get ahold of Gandalf, and I recall in the movies Gandalf needed to send messages via moth to different people)? And Gandalf was pretty much immune to Saruman's Voice, sure.

Edit: Okay, I just remembered something that MIGHT bear up your point - Gandalf basically strives mentally with Sauron over a great distance when Sauron is trying to find Frodo, who is wearing the Ring. I'll need to look that up and see how it describes this, and whether or not it indicates a possibility of Gandalf pulling off some kind of actual mental attack.

So, yeah, maybe you're correct about that part. Will do some research.

It’s an implied feet you just said he used it in three guys...

He is shown to be talking to them, and for some reason his voice makes them go all lethargic for a few seconds. That's it. The situation has no actual violence happening yet, and the moment Gimli actually DECIDES to attack him, he can. Gandalf isn't assaulting them mentally; if anything, it's presented as a weak version of what Saruman does with his Voice, and has zero bearing when it comes to a situation where fighting has started.

Nor does he use it at any other time. At BEST it's an ambiguous thing that Gandalf can maybe do with people who aren't set on straight-up attacking him.

I don’t believe that’s what happened, he knew he couldn’t win, left, bid his time for 400 years, unless you’re saying he just left but took a 400 year break?

You can not believe that's what happened. However, it flat-out states in the Council of Rivendell that Sauron was planning to leave and go back to Mordor anyway, and probably did this to make his enemies feel good/overconfident about driving him out.

Also, this was the entire White Council. So, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn, Radagast were all there. That's considerably more power than 'Gandalf' (Gandalf the Grey not even being the second most powerful person in the room), even assuming that they actually drove the Necromancer out and it wasn't part of his plan.

Also, it wasn't 400 years - that is factually incorrect. The attack on Dol Guldur takes place in 2941. Sauron declares himself openly again in 2951, after fixing up Mordor. That's 10 years, no more.

As far as I recall whoever owns the the movies owns the rights to the characters so yeah your nit picking

Okay, basically now you're just being insulting. Dude, on Rumbles - which is where we are - unless the thread poster says something (which you did not, until AFTER you started complaining about me nit-picking), the default is Primary Canon. Which, in the case of both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, are the books.

If you want it to be composite, as you are the original poster, that's fair enough. However, unless you say that (which you hadn't at the time) I am not 'nit-picking' when I talk about the books. I am following how things are done on this website.

An implied feat is still a feat if the character can do it

Except Gandalf hasn't been shown to do the things you're claiming he can do.

How does that work? They aren’t even the same kind of wizard lol

You're claiming that Gandalf and Saruman have the same powers because they're Istari, then saying that Radagast doesn't?

No comments on the quotes straight from Tolkien?

Ok I’m done rep,hung to you this has nothing to do with the thread

So, you make a thread where you don't specify it's composite in the OP, on a website where if it's not specified we do not automatically assume it's composite.

I reply to the thread using Primary Canon only, no movies. But I even ask if it's book or movie canon in that very answer.

In your very next post you tell me I'm nit-picking and to go make my own thread.

Who is actually responsible for this digression, me or you? Given that even in my first post I actually ASKED if it was book or movie canon, in your answer to that you were impolite, and since then I have said 'okay, now that you've stated it's composite we can work from there.'

All you had to do was say 'Oh, I want this to be composite'. Instead, you were condescending.

Also as for weather control...it is implied Sauruman did it but more so Gandalf called down lightning to fight the balrog and he’s done the same in other Instances

Gandalf calling lightning isn't Gandalf controlling weather. It's Gandalf calling lightning. One can argue that from a distance it looked like the peak was crowned with a storm. But Gandalf himself says that's from the battle itself.

"A great smoke rose around us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain." <-- Straight out of the books. Does it show Gandalf calling a storm in the movie? If it does, I'll certainly concede the weather control business, because this is composite.

Not saying Gandalf couldn't control the weather, but we don't see him doing it. (in the books - again, if the movie does, I'd be more than happy to concede that point). For Rumbles, that's a problem with claiming he can and using that as an argument that he'll win

[big_adventure]

Gandalf certainly doesn't control the weather when such a thing would be useful - they get chased right he hell off the mountain top by bad weather (which Saruman does interact with). That doesn't mean he can't, of course, but it sure doesn't imply that he can, either.

Gandalf the Istari has a ton of power at his disposal, mostly based on his fight with the Balrog. He's certainly much stronger and more durable than Dumbledore. However, Dumbledore is no slouch in speed (being casually capable of reacting to someone that nobody else in the milleu can really challenge, and reacting so quickly that 3 combat trained mages, wands out, got completely punked before they could react). He has feats for beating literally everybody he's ever fought, expressly in magical duels. He has canonical instant-win options that Gandalf is lacking and massively superior mobility and stealth. There is no reason to think that he can't simply transmute Gandalf's staff and Glamdring (and his robe, because that would be hilarious) into, oh, ferrets. Significantly worse wizards than Dumbledore turn people into ferrets with a thought. And he can do this while invisible and teleporting and wielding fire and transmuting and confusing and stunning and mind controlling and disarming and god knows what else.

Gandalf has the raw firepower and physical stat edge, Dumbledore has the versatility and magical combat edge. In this case, I'd say that edge nets the win for Dumbledore.

Restating the obvious, Olorin is a different story, but he's not here.

[Sharpandpointies]

Gandalf certainly doesn't control the weather when such a thing would be useful - they get chased right he hell off the mountain top by bad weather (which Saruman does interact with). That doesn't mean he can't, of course, but it sure doesn't imply that he can, either.

In fairness, there are reasons he doesn't do anything with his power. He flat-out states after lighting a fire that he has put 'Gandalf is here!' in big, neon sky-writing (in Tolkien, use of power tends to attract the attention of powerful beings), and at the time they were trying to avoid notice and such.

...I think it was after the fire, and not the supernatural wolves/spirits - I don't have my book handy right now.

But no, he doesn't actually do anything about the weather, though I'm thinking about going back to see if he says he could.

So, that's two things I need to look up -

1. Gandalf's comments regarding the weather when they're trying to cross Redhorn;
2. Gandalf's discussion about striving against Sauron to protect Frodo after he puts on the Ring to escape Boromir.

Again, I don't know enough about Dumbledore and such to comment on the fight, I'm just here for clarity. ^_^

[Sharpandpointies]

Okay, so I've found two quotes on the good old internets about Gandalf's struggle with Sauron - the first is from Frodo's point of view, the second a short description from Gandalf.

But everywhere he [Frodo] looked he saw the signs of war. ... Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir -- he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.

Emphasis mine- that 'other point of power' is Gandalf.

Okay, so what does this say?

Gandalf and Sauron are both battling within Frodo to make their points. In part, I assume that Gandalf is trying to shield Frodo, but it's pretty clear from the prose that Gandalf is also actually trying to influence him. Frodo fights it all off (he's a hobbit, and Tolkien's pretty big on the whole 'freedom of choice' thing).

Here's Gandalf on the matter.

'Yes,' said Gandalf, '... The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'

So...it's vague. Clearly Gandalf CAN mentally strive against Sauron at a vast distance (he's miles and miles away from Frodo in this scene, so it's not like he's standing right beside Frodo and protecting him), though it wipes him out (which is in keeping with the idea that Gandalf the White is still lesser in power to Sauron, as Tolkien himself confirms). So there's some argument to be made that he could use some kind of mental attack, should he so desire. There's also the possibility of argument to be made that it could be pulled off because Gandalf was a Ring-bearer, which gives him a connection to both the Ring and Sauron, but we're getting into a more complicated territory at that point.

How effective it will be is open to discussion, and how much it might influence this particular battle I can't say (again, know little about Dumbledore).

[big_adventure]

Clear and well-made point on the explanation as to why Gandalf generally doesn't use power. Granted, this is a common literary tool when you have wizards or whatever running around. If all you have to do is speak a word to get whatever you need, well, it's important to have reasons the main characters don't do just that.

I'm not really arguing that Gandalf can't do certain things - the dude is a badass. It's just that he lacks feats for doing most of those kinds of things in combat. Dumbledore does not lack such feats, and the magic system in HP is infinitely more developed and nuanced than what Tolkien writes. We are a bit at the mercy of the source material. It's never really suggested that Gandalf can turn someone into a ferret, and even if we want to extrapolate to that level, well, it's not the kind of thing he does with a glance and a gesture. Dumbledore flat-out can, being the best and most skilled wizard in his world, and it's a world where a significantly lesser wizard does exactly that. Invisibility and teleportation at the bell is a nice start, and from there, he can pick off Gandalf kind of at his leisure with invisible, auto-homing instant-win stuff.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm totally cool with all of that, and certainly not advocating to give Gandalf abilities he hasn't actually demonstrated. Kind of against Rumbles' Rules. ^_^

And, as stated, know very little about Dumbledore....

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Clear and well-made point on the explanation as to why Gandalf generally doesn't use power. Granted, this is a common literary tool when you have wizards or whatever running around. If all you have to do is speak a word to get whatever you need, well, it's important to have reasons the main characters don't do just that.

I'm not really arguing that Gandalf can't do certain things - the dude is a badass. It's just that he lacks feats for doing most of those kinds of things in combat. Dumbledore does not lack such feats, and the magic system in HP is infinitely more developed and nuanced than what Tolkien writes. We are a bit at the mercy of the source material. It's never really suggested that Gandalf can turn someone into a ferret, and even if we want to extrapolate to that level, well, it's not the kind of thing he does with a glance and a gesture. Dumbledore flat-out can, being the best and most skilled wizard in his world, and it's a world where a significantly lesser wizard does exactly that. Invisibility and teleportation at the bell is a nice start, and from there, he can pick off Gandalf kind of at his leisure with invisible, auto-homing instant-win stuff.

Tolkien: It's magic, I ain't gotta explain ****.

[wjowski]

Sharp whenever a Tolkien thread pops up:

Capture3.jpg

[Mider2009]

Gandalf certainly doesn't control the weather when such a thing would be useful - they get chased right he hell off the mountain top by bad weather (which Saruman does interact with). That doesn't mean he can't, of course, but it sure doesn't imply that he can, either.

Gandalf the Istari has a ton of power at his disposal, mostly based on his fight with the Balrog. He's certainly much stronger and more durable than Dumbledore. However, Dumbledore is no slouch in speed (being casually capable of reacting to someone that nobody else in the milleu can really challenge, and reacting so quickly that 3 combat trained mages, wands out, got completely punked before they could react). He has feats for beating literally everybody he's ever fought, expressly in magical duels. He has canonical instant-win options that Gandalf is lacking and massively superior mobility and stealth. There is no reason to think that he can't simply transmute Gandalf's staff and Glamdring (and his robe, because that would be hilarious) into, oh, ferrets. Significantly worse wizards than Dumbledore turn people into ferrets with a thought. And he can do this while invisible and teleporting and wielding fire and transmuting and confusing and stunning and mind controlling and disarming and god knows what else.

Gandalf has the raw firepower and physical stat edge, Dumbledore has the versatility and magical combat edge. In this case, I'd say that edge nets the win for Dumbledore.

Restating the obvious, Olorin is a different story, but he's not here.

I think they get weaker using magic not sure, also in the third age magic is fading

[Sharpandpointies]

Sharp whenever a Tolkien thread pops up:

Capture3.jpg

Nice meme.

I just dislike incorrect information, really. It gives me the creepies.

[Jackalope89]

I think they get weaker using magic not sure, also in the third age magic is fading

First I've head of this. I'm not the big expert or anything, but I don't think that's true. The "weaker using magic" bit.

The magic fading, yeah. Considering the Elves in Middle Earth had been in decline for some time and all, yeah. But the other, hadn't heard that one before.

[choptop]

(eats popcorn)

i'm just here for sharp's tolkien lore dumps.

As someone who has only seen the movies I have no clue what they are talking about! But it's fun to read!

[Jackalope89]

As someone who has only seen the movies I have no clue what they are talking about! But it's fun to read!

Oh, the movies only barely touch upon what's in the book (yes, singular). They leave out Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Wights, the real Faramir, Glorfindel (Arwen was given his spot during the Frodo rescue, which is a shame, as Glorfindel is one of the heroes of old), and so on.